Bible Question

[Hayes]

We, as Christians, serve a loving, forgiving, and awesome God!

How do you reconcile that statement with these circumstances......

If you're born in a remote part of the world and never hear of Christ...going to hell.

If you have been decieved by men and taught to believe in a lie.......going to hell.

My Church of Christ friends say....You're not Church of Christ......going to hell.

My predestination friends say......not chosen....going to hell


How do you reconcile this with "God is Love"? I love the old child's hymn that states, "Jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible tells me so...."

If I'm not predestined....does he love me?

Does he love buddhists? muslims? atheists? And if he does love them why wouldn't he give them an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved?

If you're born in a remote part of the world and never hear of Christ...going to hell.

This is not an excuse. There are 2 types of revalation. General and Special.

General refers to the people that hear the word then are convicted

Special refers to those that are convicted with out hearing such as people in a remote place. I beleive if they have the desire God will send them the answere.

[DEERHUNT]

I believe that he gives us "free will" to decide therefore he cannot know exactly what we will choose.

I am not trying to be the poster boy for Calvinism, but...

Is sin God's will? No, it is the result of our free will. Did God know we would sin given free will? Yes. Did he learn of sin when the forbidden fruit was eaten? No, He cannot learn because He is all knowing.

We have free will...no argument...but your statement above insinuates that God, all powerful God, has no power over your stated free will, not even the power to prompt you to follow Him. Therefore, Christ does not have the power to save you by himself, he needs you to do it for him by choosing Him on your own..i.e., he made an imperfect sacrifice.

Just because God doesn't mess with the free will decsions we make does not mean he didn't know which decsion we would make. If he did do something to change our decsion it wouldn't be free will.

[Deltamud77]

Just because God doesn't mess with the free will decsions we make does not mean he didn't know which decsion we would make. If he did do something to change our decsion it wouldn't be free will.

Romans 8:28-30 reads

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It is either something you see, or you don't see. It took me a while and then it clicked. I suggest anyone interested in learning the ins and outs of Calvinism read a book called "Truths That Transform" By Dr. D. James Kennedy. Great book, easy to read, explains things much better than I can. More importantly, it is not offensive to those in other denominations.

http://www.amazon.com/Truths-That-Trans ... 975&sr=8-2

[bobo5]

The plan of salvation is to HEAR the word of God (John 6:44-45;Rom 10:17; Acts 2:37), BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the son of God and our only savior (John 8:24;Acts 4:12), REPENT of sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38;17:30), CONFESS Christ (Acts 8:35-37; I Tim 6:12), and be immersed (BAPTIZED) in water in order to be forgiven by the blood of Christ and to enter into his church (I Pet 3:20-21; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5; I Cor 12:13; Acts 2:41, 47).

Not my $0.02, but what the BIBLE says. So much of the religous world today has gotten away from what is taught in the Holy Scripture of God and relies more on their feelings. God has told us what is what, and it doesn't really matter what I think about it.

Here is what the Bible really says about predestination if you would like to take the time to read it.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Biblical-Doctrine-of-Predestina.pdf

[bigoak]

This is a great discussion. Personally, I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and I am confident that I will be in Heaven when my time on earth is over. There are just some questions that I will ask when I get there.

I have a question for you all. I know a guy who has had some incredible business deals fall right in his lap. I mean you could not script it any better. He is super rich, has a good wife, children, plenty of hunting land, condos on the beach, etc....... We all know people like this. He is not a bad person, does not drink, not a crook or anything, very generous with his money. But he is not religious in any way. Has no desire to go to church at all. Will not even talk about it. He is obsessed with hunting & fishing and spends every Sunday doing one or the other. This person could do incredible things for the Lord. How do you get through to a person like this?

[Deltamud77]

The plan of salvation is to HEAR the word of God (John 6:44-45;Rom 10:17; Acts 2:37), BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the son of God and our only savior (John 8:24;Acts 4:12), REPENT of sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38;17:30), CONFESS Christ (Acts 8:35-37; I Tim 6:12), and be immersed (BAPTIZED) in water in order to be forgiven by the blood of Christ and to enter into his church (I Pet 3:20-21; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5; I Cor 12:13; Acts 2:41, 47).

True Dat

[Hayes]

This is a great discussion. Personally, I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and I am confident that I will be in Heaven when my time on earth is over. There are just some questions that I will ask when I get there.

I have a question for you all. I know a guy who has had some incredible business deals fall right in his lap. I mean you could not script it any better. He is super rich, has a good wife, children, plenty of hunting land, condos on the beach, etc....... We all know people like this. He is not a bad person, does not drink, not a crook or anything, very generous with his money. But he is not religious in any way. Has no desire to go to church at all. Will not even talk about it. He is obsessed with hunting & fishing and spends every Sunday doing one or the other. This person could do incredible things for the Lord. How do you get through to a person like this?

You Dont. All you can do is plant the seed. If you have done that the rest is up to him. The lord sits at the door to his heart and knocks he has to let him in. He also tells us he will only stand there and knock so long.

[Hayes]

Hayes,
The questions I posed about the false prophets has still not been answered. If they were not in the right way, how could they go astray as 2Peter 2:15 says? Also the wording about the false prophets having escaped the pollutions of the world is the same as the wording referring to the brethren in chapter one.

Also the question I posed about 2Peter 1:10. for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. If you don't do those things does it not stand to reason you can fall?

Also you quoted 2 Peter 3:14 " So then dear friend, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace.
If we can't lose our salvation, why should we make this effort?

Then there's also the parable of the sower and the seed and the seed that fell on stoney ground in Luke 8 verses 6 and 13. Jesus taught that those on stoney ground are thosethat receive the word and believe and in time of temptation fall away.
Do I believe that we are continuosly cleansed by the blood of Jesus? Absolutely. But, only if we ask to be. Otherwise we as christians would never have to repent of sins. [/b]

First off can you do right with out being a christian? Certainly. Are you righteous? certainly not.

Second the bible talks alot about backsliding, we can fall and will fall away from God but not from salvation. Again you cant lose anything you did nothing to get. Stating that you can lose salvation is saying that you can do something to earn it and I am sorry my brothers but that is just not the case.

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9-10). Thats it plain and simple. YOU WILL BE SAVED. We know what God is talking about here in Romans. He is talking about salvation. In 2 Peter he is discussing with the church False Teachers.

2 Peter Chapter 2 is warning the Church about false teachers coming into the church disguised as prohpets and priest. It is describing them because they know the word, they even know who God is but they are doing it for there own gain. Alot of people have bible knowledge and knowledge of God but do not know God.

Thirdly; WHY MAKE THE EFFORT? Because he tells me to. He tells me to walk as he did. I make the effort cause He made the effort on the cross the only difference is His love his perfect ours is not there for we can not live perfect lives.

So let me ask you this, if we sin a paticular sin that we never ask for forgiveness, such as a lie that we forgot we told and we never ask for forgiveness are we condemned to hell? If no What are the thing IYO that can make us lose our salvation.


If you read your headings in any bible about 2 peter chapter 2 they all say warnign against false teachers. How can you mis constru this to mean he is talking about the church itself.
You also stated that 2 Peter was all about warning against christians going astray and that is just not the case. That is not what 2 peter is about.

We can sit and debate this night and day. This issue has been around a long time. The main thing is that You have a personal relationship with The lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Bottom line thats it. I hope this thread has challenged us all to dig a little deeper into the word and to seek God on issues we are un clear on when we read them.

[Hayes]

Please do not get me wrong guys.

God wants us to repent of every sin we committ. He calls us to repent and seek forgiveness of every sin we committ but IT IS NOT a salvation issue.

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9-10).

[Wildfowler]

2 Peter Chapter 2 is warning the Church about false teachers coming into the church disguised as prohpets and priest. It is describing them because they know the word, they even know who God is but they are doing it for there own gain. Alot of people have bible knowledge and knowledge of God but do not know God.

This verse has long troubled me and I don't claim to have it fully understood. When I read your explanation, I immediately began to question what I understood about the passage. Here is my take, and I have a hard time reconciling what you're saying when I read the entire epistle as a whole (all three chapters). In chapter one first couple of verses Peter uses the same language to describe what is to be found in the knowledge of Christ.

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peter is using language to refer to someone who is a saved Christian at this point in his epistle. Isn't he? In fact, Peter is using the exact same Greek wording for knowledge ( epignosis ) when addressing and referring to someone who has "obtained faith, through their knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord". Then near the end of chapter 2, Peter uses the exact same language when giving the warning. Peter's wording for "knowledge" in both parts of the epistle contains the exact same Greek wording.

I'm not a Greek historian, and may very well be wrong about this. I just looked up the Greek reference to this epistle to compare what was being said in the original language. The Greek word that is used also means acknowledge (ment) which goes beyond merely having knowledge of the subject. http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ersion=kjv Surely at the beginning of the epistle, the person who has acknowledged Christ has put to use, their knowledge in Christ? Through faith?

When Peter is speaking of false profits

among you

, isn't he referring to false profits that have been allowed to infiltrate the church? Those that Peter is speaking of must think that they are members of the Church, and must think they are saved Christians. I can't help but recognize that the warning Peter has given is also addressing someone who thinks they are a Christian. That someone could be me, and I may not even know it.

Also, if you read other passages in the Bible where this particular usage of the Greek word for knowledge/acknowledge(ment) occur, there should be no doubt that the writer is speaking of someone who is a Christian because of their knowledge, as opposed to someone who may have a knowledge of Christ, but never acted upon that knowledge.

We still have to do something:

The plan of salvation is to HEAR the word of God (John 6:44-45;Rom 10:17; Acts 2:37), BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the son of God and our only savior (John 8:24;Acts 4:12), REPENT of sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38;17:30), CONFESS Christ (Acts 8:35-37; I Tim 6:12), and be immersed (BAPTIZED) in water in order to be forgiven by the blood of Christ and to enter into his church (I Pet 3:20-21; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5; I Cor 12:13; Acts 2:41, 47).

We have to acknowledge this. We have put it to action in our lives. Right?

I know that I am failing on a regular basis and don't deserve to enter the kingdom of Heaven based on my actions. I hope I'm wrong about my understanding. I honestly think there may be more to this warning than what you are giving credit for.

[hencutter]

This is a great discussion. Personally, I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and I am confident that I will be in Heaven when my time on earth is over. There are just some questions that I will ask when I get there.

I have a question for you all. I know a guy who has had some incredible business deals fall right in his lap. I mean you could not script it any better. He is super rich, has a good wife, children, plenty of hunting land, condos on the beach, etc....... We all know people like this. He is not a bad person, does not drink, not a crook or anything, very generous with his money. But he is not religious in any way. Has no desire to go to church at all. Will not even talk about it. He is obsessed with hunting & fishing and spends every Sunday doing one or the other. This person could do incredible things for the Lord. How do you get through to a person like this?

Bigoak, i'm glad to see that you have the right attitude, the "go ye therefoe into all ' attitude. I think with some one like this ,of course pray for that person's salavation, but if and when you get a chance to witness to him, quate the Word. The Bible tells us that it is sharper than any to edged sword, and that Word is Spirit.Sometimes just convincing someone with our own words just don't work. But the Word will cit to their heart.
Man, i have been away from a computer the past couple days, and this thread is still going. Glad to see veryone is still being respectful! We can all learn from these discussions when they are civil.

[Hayes]

Wildfowler: Good post, I like the debate argument you bring versus the others I have heard. I will say this though if we are relying on our actions as part of the salvation plan other than accepting none of us would make it.

[driveby]

Wildfowler: Good post, I like the debate argument you bring versus the others I have heard.

It's the very same point I made in a previous post.

I will say this though if we are relying on our actions as part of the salvation plan other than accepting none of us would make it.

James 2:14-26
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[quote=bobo5]
The plan of salvation is to HEAR the word of God (John 6:44-45;Rom 10:17; Acts 2:37), BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the son of God and our only savior (John 8:24;Acts 4:12), REPENT of sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38;17:30), CONFESS Christ (Acts 8:35-37; I Tim 6:12), and be immersed (BAPTIZED) in water in order to be forgiven by the blood of Christ and to enter into his church (I Pet 3:20-21; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5; I Cor 12:13; Acts 2:41, 47). [/quote]
Amen!



[/quote]

[bobo5]

Driveby quotes scripture from James that I was about to, but here's some more to go with it.
Romans 4:1-3 (New King James Version)
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Jonah 3:10 (New King James Version)
10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

[driveby]

Those are some good ones Bobo. Don't get me wrong, I believe salvation is a free gift through faith and grace, but it's an obedient faith. There are things we must do to obtain it even though those things are not good enough to deserve it.
Here's another passage that goes along with works and fallinf away as well.
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.