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Blades fellas, replace the blades. Never had a failure on the body of one. NEVER! And Ive killed a bunch of deer with em. Not even thought I did. Nope never. I just send it thru the cage, watch my deer fall, replace the blades and do it all over again the next day. SIMPLE.

I do replace blades on any broadhead that I shoot after every deer, or miss. The only exception has been the Montec and that is why I quit shooting them is because I could never get them back to shaving sharpness. I'll stand by the fact that if I am shooting a larger than average deer and happen to miss the optimum rib-cage shot and get into the shoulder I would rather have something like a Muzzy, Thunderhead, Rocky Mtn., etc...., but more important than that I would want a properly weighted arrow. I think that a lot of the problem is superlight arrow setups built for speed and when you couple that with a mechanical broadhead and a shoulder shot you have got trouble in a lot of instances. In the end I think everybody should shoot what they are comfortable with and we should keep debating......it is fun after a while

I 100% agree. Most of the problem is with the arrows. I want the heaviest carbon i can get just because I trust the straightness. If xx78's were as easy to come by as they used to be I might still be shooting them. But as it is I like the heavy carbons. Kinetic energy is everything when penetration is in question.

BLOOD DOG wrote:I 100% agree. Most of the problem is with the arrows. I want the heaviest carbon i can get just because I trust the straightness. If xx78's were as easy to come by as they used to be I might still be shooting them. But as it is I like the heavy carbons. Kinetic energy is everything when penetration is in question.

Weight has absolutely nothing to do with straightness on an arrow...just saying....

Kinetic energy is not solely weight...there is a bell curve when it comes to weight and kenetic energy....by your theory of shooting your "heavy, straight arrow" you are more than likely generating less kenetic energy than me shooting a modern "light" carbon arrow.

Boys let me do a little braggin on ol JLT.......this boy was born with a bow in his hand.........the man limited out with a bow on turkeys a few years back ALL ON PUBLIC LAND........he can flat out walk the walk.....Josh I know you wouldnt do it so I did.....when the man talks bows I listen


And not because he does because I am alot older than he is and have always shot them.......MUZZY not bad to the bone....bad thru them biotchs

Here is the Kinetic Energy Formula: ke=M * v2 / 450,240

Or you can let me punch your specs into this program and it will tell you the ideal gpi your arrows should be in order to maximize your kinetic energy.

Actually aluminum arrows are one of the most consistent arrows that you can buy if you are looking for straightness....that is one of the reasons that I have gone back to them in the past. You can still find the 2413's pretty easily, but they have changed the numbering on them, so they are not 2413's any more, but still the same thing. I had to change to ACC Pro Hunter's this year because of clearance issues with a QAD rest that I wanted to shoot, but the ACC's still have good weight and I think the smaller diameter/weight combo will work great.

Relentless wrote:

BLOOD DOG wrote:I 100% agree. Most of the problem is with the arrows. I want the heaviest carbon i can get just because I trust the straightness. If xx78's were as easy to come by as they used to be I might still be shooting them. But as it is I like the heavy carbons. Kinetic energy is everything when penetration is in question.

Weight has absolutely nothing to do with straightness on an arrow...just saying....

Kinetic energy is not solely weight...there is a bell curve when it comes to weight and kenetic energy....by your theory of shooting your heavy straight arrow you are more than likely generating less kenetic energy than me shooting a modern "light" carbon arrow.

I was referring to the straightness of carbons vs aluminum. Not the straightness of a heaver arrow. Wat I intended for you to read was that I shoot carbons because I trust the straightness and want the heaviest one I can find.

As for your beloved Bell curve. Most "modern bows" shoot at a fairly fast speed. That being said, a heavier arrow at nearly the same speed will have more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow. Its just math thats all.

JLT wrote:Actually aluminum arrows are one of the most consistent arrows that you can buy if you are looking for straightness....that is one of the reasons that I have gone back to them in the past. You can still find the 2413's pretty easily, but they have changed the numbering on them, so they are not 2413's any more, but still the same thing. I had to change to ACC Pro Hunter's this year because of clearance issues with a QAD rest that I wanted to shoot, but the ACC's still have good weight and I think the smaller diameter/weight combo will work great.

I also agree that they are very consistant in straightness, its the durability of the straightness if you will, thats in question. How many times can you bounce it off a root ot horse it out of an old style 3d target before it gets compromised. Any inconsistancy in your arrow is gonna cause your beloved muzzies are gonna wind plane.

BLOOD DOG wrote: As for your beloved Bell curve. Most "modern bows" shoot at a fairly fast speed. That being said, a heavier arrow at nearly the same speed will have more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow. Its just math thats all.

Well Issac Newton since your so good at "just math" you might want to take off your shoes so you can keep up with me while I explain this...

Kinetic Energy is.... ke = M * v2 / 450,240

that mean as M goes up....V goes down.....

Therefore up to a certain point you are right...weight (Thats M) does increase kinetic energy, however after you cross a threshold you loose an amount of speed (thats V) that decreases your kinectic energy...

Exhibit A:
350 gr arrow at 280 fps = 60.95 fp of kenetic energy
360 gr arrow at 270 fps = 55.55 fp
400 gr arrow at 240 fps = 51.17 fp

so yes just because your shooting a "fairly fast speed" you are not generating the maximum amount of kinetic energy...

So I was trying to be nice by explaining my "beloved bell curve".

What I was trying to tell you before is I have a computer program at my shop that does "JUST MATH" and tells you what spine (that transfers to weight) in order to maximize: Kinetic Energy, Speed, whatever you want...

I'm not saying your bow or your set-up isn't lethal...or that you should listen to a word I say, all I am saying is that there is a fundemental flaw in your reasoning with your "heavier" arrows and I was just trying to help. Let me know your setup and I'll run the numbers and tell you the optimal spine.

Relentless wrote:

BLOOD DOG wrote: As for your beloved Bell curve. Most "modern bows" shoot at a fairly fast speed. That being said, a heavier arrow at nearly the same speed will have more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow. Its just math thats all.

Well Issac Newton since your so good at "just math" you might want to take off your shoes so you can keep up with me while I explain this...

Kinetic Energy is.... ke = M * v2 / 450,240

that mean as M goes up....V goes down.....

Therefore up to a certain point you are right...weight (Thats M) does increase kinetic energy, however after you cross a threshold you loose an amount of speed (thats V) that decreases your kinectic energy...

Exhibit A:
350 gr arrow at 280 fps = 60.95 fp of kenetic energy
360 gr arrow at 270 fps = 55.55 fp
400 gr arrow at 240 fps = 51.17 fp

so yes just because your shooting a "fairly fast speed" you are not generating the maximum amount of kinetic energy...

So I was trying to be nice by explaining my "beloved bell curve".

What I was trying to tell you before is I have a computer program at my shop that does "JUST MATH" and tells you what spine (that transfers to weight) in order to maximize: Kinetic Energy, Speed, whatever you want...

Well if im Sir Issac Newton then you must be Fred flippin Bear cus u know all there is to know about bows and arrows. What does you program tell you about retained , Or led me say it so my dumb ole self can cypher it our, down range energy on the super light arrows? In a sence they are the same as bullets and you dont want to talk to me about that either. Its just math too Fred.

far from all knowing, but I work on a bunch...and shot an awful lot....

Dang Johnny....you gotta stop, you are making me blush.

Blood Dog....you got a point with the durability of the carbons. If my Muzzy's fail me in Quebec at the end of this month what you gonna charge to come blood trail for me?

Relentless....You done gone and got wayyyyy over my head. I am gonna read that about 8 more times and get back with you for an explanation. You not supposed to have to think too much in hunting.

Relentless wrote:far from all knowing, but I work on a bunch...and shot an awful lot....

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