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T-Bone wrote:duckdawg27,
I hope I didnt step on any toes by crossposting this thread. I thought it was a valid point wanted to see what others on here had to say. So I apologize if I offended someone.

Nope none needed......I hang out over here some but don't post much. Just though I'd speak up in defense (said jokingly) of my buds. Valid points on both side of the discussion.

I think goosebruce hit the nail and agreed to an extent with what at least one post said. Most of the ams are one man one dog teams. Most of the pros have multiple "bullets". The chances are therefore (in my opinion) better for the pro.(like buying more lotto tickets). For my part I'm just a DA engineer. I look at the numbers. Of course a non-pro can pass and some of you have proven that beyond doubt. But, the numbers I see tell me that far more pros pass than non-pro. Some of the "OPINIONS" about why we thought that might be true are in the thread.
I guess we're flattered that anything we said was "important or funny enough" to get cross posted

coming from someone who hopes to go to a Grand someday...and based on things that I have heard from most if not all the "ams" with passes AND failed attempts mentioned here...the Grand is exactly what it is with or without the pro v am numbers debate...I think the numbers sound about right to me...

duckdawg27 wrote:

T-Bone wrote:duckdawg27,
I hope I didnt step on any toes by crossposting this thread. I thought it was a valid point wanted to see what others on here had to say. So I apologize if I offended someone.

Nope none needed......I hang out over here some but don't post much. Just though I'd speak up in defense (said jokingly) of my buds. Valid points on both side of the discussion.

I think goosebruce hit the nail and agreed to an extent with what at least one post said. Most of the ams are one man one dog teams. Most of the pros have multiple "bullets". The chances are therefore (in my opinion) better for the pro.(like buying more lotto tickets). For my part I'm just a DA engineer. I look at the numbers. Of course a non-pro can pass and some of you have proven that beyond doubt. But, the numbers I see tell me that far more pros pass than non-pro. Some of the "OPINIONS" about why we thought that might be true are in the thread.
I guess we're flattered that anything we said was "important or funny enough" to get cross posted

Are you looking at numbers only or did you calculate a pass fail percentage for each entry?

Scientific method not applied....
We were only talking about passes. Taking into account that if one pro passes 2 dogs it counted as 2 pro passes. But I think the guy that came up with original post came up with 6 non-pro passes and just subtracted from there. I suppose if you look at it in reverse, since some pros take 6 or 8 and pass 2 or 3 it could be said that pros also "fail" more than non-pro. Interesting point of view Doc.

I would be willing to bet if you look at the numbers in percentages then it will be closer than you think. Reality is, roughly 20-30% of the dogs entered in the grand pass. If you look at it from a Pro -AM stand point I bet those numbers hold true.

Yea if I remember right the total pass rate (for this last one ) was about 19.8% of total entries.
I love stats....football, baseball, Hunt Test. The only thing is ,you know what they say. There are Lies, Dam Lies, then Statistics. But, I think dividing the total passes by the number of total entries is a pretty solid stat. Not much of a way to screw that up.
But I do think that maybe there were some assumptions made like if the handler was not the listed owner then the handler must be a pro....that might not be true so its possible that the number 6 non-pro handlers might be higher. In that case he was trying get at a comparison of owner/handler vs "other"?. I don't know...too much thought for an afternoon just before for a Holiday weekend.
Ya'll be careful training in the heat this weekend and have a cold one on me

goosebruce wrote:btw, larry mcmurry is an amatur... that had 10 grand passes on pepper, without ever putting a collar on her. And grand titled belle and star after that. frank bush comes to mind, as an amature that had grhrch mh qaa dogs. I could sit here and think of more, but the point of an amature at the grand is that with only 1 or 2 bullets, its a lot easier to have atmoshpric condtions send you packing by drawing the wrong test at the wrong time. A string of 6 or 8, spreads out the risk. travis

Travis I got his next Grand dog sitting in my lap right now

I ain't scared..... See y'all in Union City...........

Billy, I think that is the CAT'S meow. I was so tickled to see him get any new dog, let alone an abby puppy. What a wonderful place for one of your babies to go to! travis

Just 'slummin'
Y'all please carry on with this great topic......

I started the original post on Alducks. Things were slow and this topic was guaranteed to start up a discussion.

When I looked in the state of Alabama only one amatuer has recently obtained a Grand pass and that was Cade Gentry. My state has an active group of dog trainers but not much sucess in this venue. One of my training group has a dog that is as consistant as any I know and has failed three Grands. As someone who has ran hunt tests for less than 3 years it seems out of reach.

The only glimmer of hope is from the Southern Flight club where most of the recent amateur passes in this area have originated. My # of 6 amatuer passes came from the HRC website. Of these how many were running pro trained dogs? I would guess one or two.

Congratulations to Tony and Daisee on your pass. The only Alabama/Mississippi pass I am aware of in South Dakota. I would guess area 5 and 5a are two of the more active HRC regions with only one amatuer pass to show. I know a lot of the dogs and people that failed this Grand and if they can't pass neither can I.

In my defense with my first hunt test dog HRCH Princess Anastasia Belle MH we earned a HRCH at 21 months (failing a lot of tests learning the ropes) and a MH at 28 months going 6 for 7. We also brought home a green ribbon from Black Warrior's O/H Q which was not easy. Some of you were there.

My conclusion from the discussion was to continue training. Those of you who know my dog can testify that I have line manner issues. They are greatly improved but not Grand level. Taking a week from work to pick up Annie without seeing a mark is not something that interests me. We will work on line manners and probably run the MN and/or Qualifiers this fall.
Mark Land