cross post from alducks.com about da GRAND

[T-Bone]

I ran across this today off the HRC website. See whatchall thank..... tony

http://alducks.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10736

[jsherwin]

I think you should go pro.

[cdwyer]

He already is?

[goosebruce]

A lot of expert opinions from folks who have never been in a 3/4 mile line of dog trucks at 6 am. travis (who has a 100% amature trained dog that passed the grand, missed a grand title by half a step, and has had handler errors fail the same dog in every series of the grand as well).

[Doc & Nash]

I don't think Pro or Am. has anything to do with it. I think it is dedication and knowledge. Anyone can say they train daily but unless they are increasing their knowledge base daily then they are only doing half of what is nessecary.

If you teach the same thing and it is wrong just because you do it every day does not make it right.

Dedication and Knowledge, if you want to compete at the grand level then step up your knowledge base and then impliment it in your training. I think the more successful AM trainers are constantly increasing their knowledge. Me personally, increasing my knowledge, is something that I have failed miserably at.

[Trykon]

Guys the grand is not something that is unobtainable. Most of these people who believe it is just simply have not prepared enough for it. It takes a combination of good preperation, a good dog, and a lot of luck. I personally don't believe a grand title is out of reach of anyone that is willing to put the time in preperation and will to go where he/she needs to learn the skills neccesary to make a grand dog.

Just my .02.

[Starhill Labs]

I'll ditto what Travis said. I have judged two Grands and I will tell you that the last thing I was looking for was a dog to creep past the handlers knee so I could jerk him. I am not sure I would agree with the statement in that thread stating that 70% went out on line manners. Line manners usually extend to field work and the dog that is not sitting and watching probably misses the finer marking points to go directly to the area of the fall or is not taking his casts as precisely as it should. I have seen more dogs go out on marking and blind work than line manners. Fact of the matter is that your points carry over through the first 4 series and if you get a pair of ones in the first, you got a long row to hoe... and I know it has been done. It is tough and it should be. These are supposed to be the best of the best. My Katie took 5 attempts to get her Grand title as have many. As I have heard all my dog enhanced life... train, don't complain.

[jsherwin]

I started my dog out on everything. Katrina (that ole piece of wind and water) messed that up. I was just off the table and didn't want to stop so while i was out i had her sent to a pro friend of mine.
After my Katrina work was over I got her back and titled her myself in Seasoned and Finished. We worked our butts off and ran the Grand in N. Texas (this is after i had already been to 3, before i ever had a dog). We made it to the 2nd, what put us out was the running water blind in about 40 mph winds. Anybody that remembers the carp schooling remembers that test. Beamer went out the dog in front of me. If you let em roll they couldn't hear the whistle. I took away a whole lot running one. I walked off the line and the first thing that came out of my mouth was " We Can Do This".
I got a call a month and a half before the Michigan grand from my pro friend making a deal i couldn't refuse. The ole pooch made it through. Got her back and ran our first master's.
Had time to go to Georgia and trained hard and went. Made it to the 4th, last blind and just couldn't get her out of the cover on the water blind. Yep, the people that were there remembers that one too. I was heart broken on that one. Made it so close but oh so far (Right Trykon). The Iowa Grand was coming up and my wife was due a baby, so my buddy offered again. She passed and was a GRHRCH. I got her back and went 6 for 7 in Master's. I trained hard for the Master's and I ran her. SHe qualified for the Master Nationals this year.
I say that to say this. I love to train, I have 2 close friends that train with me weekly. I love to train by myself with my girls. It's a stress reliever for me and a time to clear my head from work and i have the grounds to do it. I live on em, so all i have to do is walk out the back door. I feel like i put 93.5% of the training in that dog, and i did. That's what makes it so sweet for me. Because i know her, i can think what see is fixen to do. Anticipate what is fixen to happen. I feel like she was AM trained and 93.5% of it she was. I had her there I just needed someone to run her.
If i had to do it all over again, I would still do what I've done. I wanted to experience it for myself and I did.
The Grand was my goal when i got her and that's how we trained. But one thing i no is i didn't do it by myself and i'm 100% ok with that and am very proud of my friends that helped make that goal happen.
You never KNOW until YOU GO. So here is to the days of cooler weather and training and setting goals that you feel you can reach. IT IS OBTAINABLE
TO my AMATEUR FRIENDS. Keep on Keeping on

[Starhill Labs]

No doubt about it, Mallie is a nice dog that I love to watch. You've done a nice job and should be proud!

[Cat Squirrel]

Yikes!!!!

Ha ha ha...I was slummin over there.

Kevin B. : Maya & I always like runnin under you; win, lose or draw....and I will NEVER forget that thunderstorm/no birds at the Amite Grand where I went back and forth to the line in that duckhole...I think I almost bit my whistle in half that day

[duckdawg27]

Catsquirrel you can slum wid us anytime.........
Don't know if it was all "that" or not......just a bunch of buddies blowing off some frustration.
Experts? heck no....just some trainers(me included) that realize that they aren't there......... yet .
I've noticed that some of the folks on this board have done a pretty fair job of "representing" at the Grand. Hats Off to ya

[Trykon]

Right on jsherwin!!! So close but yet so far away. Max has went out on the blind in the 4th twice now after having all 2's through 3 series. You get so close and something happens and it's over. Bad thing is you have to go back and make it through the first 3 days to try the 4th again. But that's the nature of the game. Once grand pass in Iowa which i can't take much credit for. I did run Max but Ronnie had him up north for 3 months before that one. Can't thank him enough for what he did with Max that summer and all i've learned from that man. Even after loosing Max in the 4th twice it just fuels the fire to go back and do it again. I have no doubts we'll one day achieve his grand title. He's run 3 grands and picked up every mark in those 3. That's 36 grand marks with only one handle. However we've come short on the blind in the 4th twice. But like i said just adds fuel to the fire for me to train harder and smarter to make it happen.

[Mark Evans]

Doc and Nash hit the nail on the head. You have to learn what to do, then do it consistently. I was very fortunate that, after buying Elvis from Chuck McCall as a 7 week old puppy, he told me anytime I wanted to train with him, I was welcome!! I have trained with him consistently from the time Elvis was seven months old. He is the first dog I have owned and I didn't know anything about training or handling a dog. I have told many people that EVERY time I trained with Chuck for the first THREE YEARS, I learned something new. This is not an exaggeration. I had no idea that dog training was as technical as it is.

If you have the determination and a dog that is capable, an amateur can certainly achieve a GRHRCH title. Kevin Norman is the only person I know that has passed the first two. Elvis and I came close, passing the first and going out on points in the fourth at our second. It definitely is not easy, but it can be done. I would highly recommend running the grand if you have a dog that has a chance to pass. I think all of the line manners/heeling stuff has been blown out of proportion. I've been to five and I've never seen ONE DOG failed for "behavioral stuff" that didn't deserve it. We passed two, out on points in the fourth twice, and out in the second once due to DAH error!!! My point is that I have seen lots of dogs walk to the line and sit at the bucket during the tests and I think the judges gave everyone a fair shake.

There is nothing like running a Grand. It is definitely a HUGE notch above a finished/master test. You will definitly find out what you and your dog are made of at the Grand.


See ya in Union City, TN!!!!!

PS GC- I can't believe you left Elvis and I out of amateur GRHRCH's !!!

[T-Bone]

Catsquirrel you can slum wid us anytime.........
Don't know if it was all "that" or not......just a bunch of buddies blowing off some frustration.
Experts? heck no....just some trainers(me included) that realize that they aren't there......... yet .
I've noticed that some of the folks on this board have done a pretty fair job of "representing" at the Grand. Hats Off to ya

duckdawg27,
I hope I didnt step on any toes by crossposting this thread. I thought it was a valid point wanted to see what others on here had to say. So I apologize if I offended someone. I guess I have been one of the "lucky" or fortunate amateurs to pass a Grand, actually should have pass my first 2 but my inexperience caught up with me in my 1st one at the upland in Ga Grand(couldnt make it to Iowa) after the judge tapped me on the shoulder and said ..."your done son, reheel your dog" ...words that I will never forget!(another story).
As far as my take on the subject and it may be a bit skewed but I think an amateur can git ur dun. But he/she has to do exactly that.... git ur' did! He has to put himself in a position to achieve...meaning put in the field time, training with better handlers(pro trainers if possible) and ask alot of questions of these better trainers and also be willing to accept constructive criticism when needed.

I also think IMHO where a lot of handlers, amateur and pro, miss the boat is that they dont, for lack of better words, think like a dog. I guess this where I was fortunate or lucky to be surrounded by dogfolk that taught me in the beginning to look at things the way a dog would. Not to just walk up to a fileld and see 3 marks and a blind but understand how each bump, patch of grass, hillside and wind would effect a dog that ran those marks. After you have set up your marks and gone over the above scenario, is to critique yourself. Did the dogs do what you thought or something different and try to understand what they did and why. The only way to learn that is plain and simple watch dogs. Go to hunt test offer to marshall, listen to judges when they are setting up test, watch how pros run their 8 dogs. The good handlers know what fido is going to do before fido knows! You may or may not know exactly what or where fido is going to break down or not but you got a pretty good idea. When you start to figure out how fido thinks and learns you can adapt your training to get the best out of him/her. In the long run that may or may not be enough but at least you tried...more than most can say!

I will say this. The GRAND is the GRAND for a reason. After Daisee picked up the Avery water blind successfully in our 3rd series in South Dakota, I turned to the judge, Larry McMurry, and told him that was the most physially and mentally exhausting test that me and my dog have ever ran...his reply was "That is why they call it the GRAND!!!" tony

[goosebruce]

btw, larry mcmurry is an amatur... that had 10 grand passes on pepper, without ever putting a collar on her. And grand titled belle and star after that. frank bush comes to mind, as an amature that had grhrch mh qaa dogs. I could sit here and think of more, but the point of an amature at the grand is that with only 1 or 2 bullets, its a lot easier to have atmoshpric condtions send you packing by drawing the wrong test at the wrong time. A string of 6 or 8, spreads out the risk. travis