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GulfCoast wrote:

I think I am going back to just being a predatory duck hunter. Life was simpler back then.

Ain't nothing wrong with a good dog and a pocket full of rocks!!

A meat dog will still find most of your ducks but its hard to go back to accepting that standard of dog work when you've seen what "good" is.

Sorry GC but you can't go back- your hooked.

The best way to learn is to fail a few blinds- thats the best lessons you can get. After a while you learn to walk to the line and spot the bunkers before you play into them.

Bill

somewhere, somehow, folks got the ideal an over is bad. Id much rather see an over, and get back to running my blind, than 15 casts at the edge of the window (or out of the window, outside of the hazards). can't you how many finished blinds could have been saved, by a simple over to break momutm and get the dog back handling.

use the cast that lets you stay alive. Never put a dog in a place where one cast refusual will kill you. Overcast if you arent sure. If you didnt get a cast 2 times, you WONT get it the 3rd. travis

Mark, all you gotta do is keep trying to get closer to the blind. If you cast to some point downwind from the blind, then you are not running "at the blind". And what the sheet is gonna look like after your dog got down wind and winded the bird on his own is that at that point the dog was not taking a cast and was "out of control" or he was a SOB (stumbled onto bird). Bottom line is you get up there and try to get the dog closer to the blind with every cast and keep the dog in control the whole time and you will pass every blind, or probably have a legit bitch at the judges.

If you give the cast and the dog caves to the factors so she turns and then eases back to the same line she has in her head, she's gona keep doing it and on paper you get a series of scallops, and you get talked about after the test. The over, IMO, conveys a message to the dog that is "hey, we gotta do something different".

The over results in a new frame of mind for the dog. Maybe its just me, but I think it results from using overs for course corrections in training. For example, she wants to beach early on a water return in training. You give her an over and make her get back into the water and back on the correct return line. It is like a correction to her. She associates the over with being corrected. The over begins to mean "no, we aint going there, we are going somewhere else". You give the over in the test, you get a correction without electricity and a dog that is looking at you for the new destination.

Overs break momentum. First thing you do when you find yourself in a hole, is to quit digging. travis

It takes some experience to see what those holes are as well. Don't let him get in them. If the line to the blind takes you through a hazard plan ahead how you are going to get him in and out of it.

No need to be a hero on a blind. Trying to line a blind that takes you through a hazard where you can lose the dog is risky. PLAN to blow the whistle. I send the dog with the whistle already in my mouth because its not a question of whether I'll blow it- its a question of when. Stop him on the point, wait and gain focus, and then give the cast that will get him off the point. A back will often result in him hooking back behind the point. Also not stopping him just as he exits the water onto the point will possibly result in a hook behind the point.Once that happens its all over (BACK to the truck)

If there is big suction, don't wait until the dog commits to the hazard. I might stop him while he's still on line but is just looking and thinking about cutting off line. Thats in a test. In training you've got to let him make the decision but in a test don't let him commit to where he thinks it is. The more you let him commit, the more it takes to change his mind to go where you want him to.

Also keep in mind that an over cast will likely not be taken as an over by the dog in a test. It'll probably be an angle back which should have him progressing toward the bird and make the judges happy.

Bill

dukdawgn wrote:ya'll are putting way too much effort into this....

if you need an over to get to the bird, you boxed in the blind, you are probably headed for the truck.

vs.

if you need a back cast to get to the bird, you ran the blind, you are headed to the next test.

just a phrase to get people to realize the difference between running at a blind, and running over to a blind.

Best said!! Sweet and Simply put! If you get offline, you are prolly headed to the truck and NOT the ribbon!!

trully, goose. all that is good stuff.

pntailhntr wrote:

dukdawgn wrote:ya'll are putting way too much effort into this....

if you need an over to get to the bird, you boxed in the blind, you are probably headed for the truck.

vs.

if you need a back cast to get to the bird, you ran the blind, you are headed to the next test.

just a phrase to get people to realize the difference between running at a blind, and running over to a blind.

Best said!! Sweet and Simply put! If you get offline, you are prolly headed to the truck and NOT the ribbon!!

i would disagree, but whatdoiknow?

welllll, i'll disagree. a blind, by definition, is a bird the dog didn't see go down. in route to the blind, there may be numerous obstatcles that will deter a dog off a given course (heck, that's the object).

will a dog/handler that's working as a team negotiate those obstacles in a given fashion so you don't need an over? maybe..........maybe not.

admittedly having never been in a judges chair, i can't say what THEY might do........but, i have been to the line enough both in training and testing to know that i like to see a dog recover from an issue almost as much as a dog that didn't have it to begin w/...........almost.

also, when "grading" blinds, i would think one would need to take the venue into account. will an over fail a dog in a finished test? honestly, i hope not. will an over keep a dog from winning a field trial? maybe depending on every other dog that runs that test, but i've honestly heard of dogs doing a LOT more heinous things than getting an over from his handler AND TAKING IT and winning.

am i gonna ding a dog for sucking to a big ole bunch of scent from a mark that's landed there ALL DAY LONG or a poison bird? man, i hope not. ain't that why you set it up that way in the first place?

i suppose that i say all that to say this............i SINCERELY HOPE folks don't go around boxing themselves in to a corner judging and grading a blind, failing or not calling back a dog, b/c the dog needed an over.

maybe i'm wrong....................and, if i am, i bet 14 of you good folks will certainly tell me.

gator

After Reading Gator's post, I'll have to agree with him. I haven't seen that many Finished tests there they giving hand signals, the only ones I've seen there weren't any obstacles to go around, relativly easy. But i can see where if you have a bunch of obstacles, you would definitely have to use an over.

WELL SAID!!!

well, thanks mr. edit button that we don't have

i meant to have in there somewhere that i also think that WHERE the "over" occured in the test is of importance.

if it occured where josh stated which to me reads like the end of the blind I.E the "boxing of the blind", then i might conceed that as a poorly run blind.

if it occured early on, i might conceed that a poor "lining" dog that should be dinged, if for nothing else than handler knowledge of how to run a blind and the importance of a good initial line.

but, again, if it occurred along the route, after a good initial, and is the result of obstacles, i'm gonna watch for and take into serious account how that teamed worked together to recover the bird/blind

gator

While we're talking about the end of the blind I've got a querstion? As far as boxing the end of the blind....

Lets say your dog is real good at taking overs to the point that if you stop him at 100 yds 5 feet to the right of the duck and give a left over the dog will assume its supposed to leave the duck and take the over and run right over it.

I use a pick up whistle....3 toots....and an over cast to tell the dog to pick it up. How is it judged in a HT?

Bill

Bill,

If I'm judging then it doesn't count any better or any worse than someone just giving the cast......what do I care what kind of cast (whistle toots in your case) are given if the dog runs a good blind. someone can give an over if they like and if that dog takes an angle towards the blind then I don't care......if anyone ever looks at my judges sheets then you'll just see a bunch of dots, followed with a line drawn over the dots when the dog is finished running in order to see their directions, as long as they are towards the bird or the line to the blind then they are ok, if they aren't then it is a refusal (whether it was the dog or a dumbarse handler mistake makes no difference to me because if a handler is sending the dog away from the line or the blind then they are refusing to run it just as much as the dog is ).

Now when it comes to judging a dog caving into a factor on a blind, I don't mark them down for caving into it (that is exactly why it is there) I judge how they recover from it and depending on the severity of the factor then that reflects the opportunities they will be given in order to recover.

judging blinds is the easiest part of the entire gig IMHO.

Hope some of that makes sense

hate not having edit buttons........but one thing to ALWAYS remember is blinds are judged differently at each venue. Just like a "come in" whistle want usually cause a stir at HRC test, you blow one at an AKC deal and your in trouble. same can be said for overs in certain situations (the dog taking an over taht is and not waht cast is given by the handler because most times an "over" cast is one being used to get a good angle).

Why do I have edit buttons and y'all don't?