Someone explain this to me, please:

[GulfCoast]

The phrase "Back to the bird, Over to the Truck."

Barlow tried, and I think I was too dense to grasp it.

[gator]

Interpretation.

If you need an “over” to get your dog back online, you have let him venture too far off the line.

Conversely, a “back” can be readily viewed as “your dog is still on a good line, you’re just giving a bit of help to keep him there”.

Your job, as a dog/handler team is to challenge (although no one will say that – sure wish someone would splain that to me) the line to the blind as determined by the placement of said blind to the position of the handler.

Over = way offline
Back = online, just being safe

Least that’s the way I read it…….but, I’m not sure I haven’t heard the same thing, only in reverse……..

Anyhow, thanks for the post, I’m at work and thankfully kinda bored at present.

gator

[B3]

I think it refers to "momentum casting". The dog will typically behave differently in a trial than in training and will typically cave in more to factors while running a blind. For that reason you abandon the literal casting that you use in training and basically overcast to be safe.

Here's the classic example that I've seen described. Your running a water blind that takes you over a little point of land that the dog must get on and then back into the water to finish the blind. Lets say the land is heavily scented from a previous mark and the wind is a crosswind blowing from the water to the land. Dog gets a good line and swims up onto the point and starts to scallop just a little toward the scent. You blow the whistle and he sits looking at you.

What cast do you give? remeber its a test and NOT training.

The dog is only a few feet off line and if he takes the literal cast to the stake you'll have a beautiful blind.

Is this the cast to give in a test? NO!!!

Why? Because the dog will almost certainly scallop back behind the point out of sight. I made this mistake in my first ever finished water blind.

The safe cast is the over cast because he probably won't give an over anyway, but it will "overcast" him away from the tremendous suction on the land that is heightened by the trail/test atmosphere.

Thats why they say "over to the blue, back to the truck"

BTW this is not the casting strategy to use in training. Use literal casting in training, but use momentum casting if your trying to win/pass a blind.

Hope this makes sense....thats the way I understand it.


Bill

[B3]

Just reread your post GC.

Like Gator says, I've also heard it as over to the blue(or bird) and back to the truck for the reason I just stated.

Your phrase is backwards from what I've used and heard from others.

Bill

[gator]

yeah bill, that's what i was thinking too.

tried to explain it from the way that reads, but i've heard it and understood it the way you explained.

gator

[GulfCoast]

I heard it the exact way I typed it at the AKC judges seminar, too. The speaker was saying that a "big over" was "dog training" and should be dropped, same as any "regression" on a blind. I understood it as basically they did not want to see any "come in" whistles or "overs" just "angle backs." Seemed kinda Nazi to me, but what do I know?

I sometimes struggle to grasp what this stuff has to do with reality, or how it impacts what me and my "often confused by Mark but trying to please him" dog do in training.

[B3]

In a test theres a big difference between the casts you give or need to give and what direction the dog goes- hence the need for momentum casting. The dog is still being judged on which way he goes, but it shouldn't matter to the judges if your over cast makes him go straight back. Like I said in my example, the dog is just a little off line and doesn't need to go over, he just needs an over cast to safely go back toward the bird.

Bill

[Duck Chaser]

yup, bill's first post is the classic "over to the blue/bird", momentum casting dealio.. sounds like the akc seminar flipped it around in an attempt to explain something totally different (that was genius ), which gator explained. nothing wrong with the point being made, but strange to reverse widely used terminology to do it.

imo, a "big over" can be excellent recovery, if you can get it, in certain situations. but, the majority of blinds will allow you to maintain a visual if you keep them on line, and simply needing an over could mean your toast.

I'll go with a "here" whistle/dog coming in, being training (attrition), or I accept it anyway.. that regression will get you in either venue. like bill said, its all about what the dog does, and not your cast. saw a DTS / running water, waterblind couple years back. about halfway, dog decided it was time to EXIT.. handler stops and cast left AB hoping for a left back. dog turned the right way, but scalloped around so fast, you could call it a refusal. stop again, (needing a left AB by this time). handler gives a straight left over with a "toot-toot". got the AB and a ribbon.

[dukdawgn]

ya'll are putting way too much effort into this....

if you need an over to get to the bird, you boxed in the blind, you are probably headed for the truck.

vs.

if you need a back cast to get to the bird, you ran the blind, you are headed to the next test.

just a phrase to get people to realize the difference between running at a blind, and running over to a blind.

[Meeka]

Like they said, the saying you typed is backward.

In a test and the dog is hyped and gets somewhat offline. You need an angle back or back cast with a correct turn, which the dog probably takes in training. In the test, you are likely to get no change in direction due to the factors. So it works out that you give the over cast and you wind up actually getting a comprimise, which is the direction you really wanted. Remember, you ain't really gonna get the literal over. Its like using double reverse psychology to get what you need.

[jksboxofchocolates]

From a different perspective, I have heard "over to the bird, back to the truck" used in reference to a dog sitting on a point and needs to drive back. Most dogs if given a back will stay on the point but an over will get them off the point and usually driving back in the the water.

Just another thought.

Janet

[GulfCoast]

I talked to Barlow again, his version is "back to the bird, over to the truck." Making the handler run at the blind, not running to the woodline downwind of the bird, then giving an over down the woodline into the wind.

I think I am going back to just being a predatory duck hunter. Life was simpler back then.

[Bayou Beagle]

Larry McMurty (sp?) spoke about this at the Judges seminar about month ago. His assessment is that some trainers don't train literal casts and only use overs and backs.

Therefore if you get off line and the cast improves your position toward the blind then he believes you are still ok. If the dog takes the cast and does not improve his position toward the blind then there's trouble.

he called it, the 90 degree rule. Because some handlers will give an over back to the line and then back to the blind versus a literal cast to the blind.

Interesting topic!

[gator]

my suggestion, for what it's worth.....

run the blind as STRAIGHT as possible.

gator

[GulfCoast]

my suggestion, for what it's worth.....

run the blind as STRAIGHT as possible.

gator

That's always the plan.....