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Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:37 pm
by Wingman
The Catholic church thinks of abortion as murder. What say you all?
Absolutely. From conception, there is a human in a woman's womb, no matter what the pro-abortion crowd chooses to call it. That baby doesn't become a human the day it comes out into the open air, it is a human inside the mother from day 1. Some call it pro-choice, but abortion is genocide, plain and simple.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:49 am
by skywalker
Yes, abortion is murder.
I do not believe in predestination, but in the free will to choose. God did not make us robots, but gave us a choice. So if we can choose to accept the gift (salvation), I believe we can also choose to reject or lay it down (fall away) of our own free will.
skywalker
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:24 am
by GulfCoast
Presbyterian Pet Peeve here: What you are describing is NOT predestination. You are describing DETERMINISM, which no protestant demonination that I am aware of believes in. Even the most staunch Calvinists, of which I am one, believe in free will. Simply because God KNOWS in advance who will chose to exercise that free will to accept him or not DOES NOT make us robots. You still have a choice to make, and consequences from that choice.
As an aside, it pretty much cracks me up to hear someone who believes in "election" (all you Baptists and Pentacostals do, ask your preacher) then make comments about "predestination" in the reformed tradition when they are two different labels for the same thing. Sort of like saying, "I don't believe in stock car racing, I believe in NASCAR." Soap box off, back to your regularly scheduled program.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:32 am
by Hayes
GulfCoast wrote:Presbyterian Pet Peeve here: What you are describing is NOT predestination. You are describing DETERMINISM, which no protestant demonination that I am aware of believes in. Even the most staunch Calvinists, of which I am one, believe in free will. Simply because God KNOWS in advance who will chose to exercise that free will to accept him or not DOES NOT make us robots. You still have a choice to make, and consequences from that choice.
As an aside, it pretty much cracks me up to hear someone who believes in "election" (all you Baptists and Pentacostals do, ask your preacher) then make comments about "predestination" in the reformed tradition when they are two different labels for the same thing. Sort of like saying, "I don't believe in stock car racing, I believe in NASCAR." Soap box off, back to your regularly scheduled program.
I agree Coast and I am Babtist. The Bible clearly talks about predestination and to see so many say I do not believe in it is like saying you do not believe the Bible. I think there is a Big misconception in what predestination really means and is. And the majority of Babtist have been taught there entire life if you hear the word its bad and do not beleive in it. If it was what people are trying to say it is then no you do not need to believe in it. but the key is its not what people think it means.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:45 am
by henkiller
browning wrote:We, as Christians, serve a loving, forgiving, and awesome God!
How do you reconcile that statement with these circumstances......
If you're born in a remote part of the world and never hear of Christ...going to hell.
If you have been decieved by men and taught to believe in a lie.......going to hell.
My Church of Christ friends say....You're not Church of Christ......going to hell.
My predestination friends say......not chosen....going to hell
How do you reconcile this with "God is Love"? I love the old child's hymn that states, "Jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible tells me so...."
If I'm not predestined....does he love me?
Does he love buddhists? muslims? atheists? And if he does love them why wouldn't he give them an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved?
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:06 am
by driveby
Hayes,
The questions I posed about the false prophets has still not been answered. If they were not in the right way, how could they go astray as 2Peter 2:15 says? Also the wording about the false prophets having escaped the pollutions of the world is the same as the wording referring to the brethren in chapter one.
Also the question I posed about 2Peter 1:10. for
if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. If you don't do those things does it not stand to reason you can fall?
Also you quoted 2 Peter 3:14 " So then dear friend, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace.
If we can't lose our salvation, why should we make this effort?
Then there's also the parable of the sower and the seed and the seed that fell on stoney ground in Luke 8 verses 6 and 13. Jesus taught that those on stoney ground are thosethat receive the word and believe and in time of temptation
fall away.
Do I believe that we are continuosly cleansed by the blood of Jesus? Absolutely. But, only if we ask to be. Otherwise we as christians would never have to repent of sins.
[/b]
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:18 am
by JoHo
henkiller wrote:browning wrote:We, as Christians, serve a loving, forgiving, and awesome God!
How do you reconcile that statement with these circumstances......
If you're born in a remote part of the world and never hear of Christ...going to hell.
If you have been decieved by men and taught to believe in a lie.......going to hell.
My Church of Christ friends say....You're not Church of Christ......going to hell.
My predestination friends say......not chosen....going to hell
How do you reconcile this with "God is Love"? I love the old child's hymn that states, "Jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible tells me so...."
If I'm not predestined....does he love me?
Does he love buddhists? muslims? atheists? And if he does love them why wouldn't he give them an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved?
God is love! God loves the buddhist,atheists, you and me just the same. Take a close look at John 3:16. "God so loved the world that whoever belives in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." It didn't say a select number or a chosen people. It said whoever. That means anybody and everybody.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:51 am
by driveby
The buddhists, muslims, and atheists do not believe in him(Jesus) so.....
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:27 am
by cwink
My Church of Christ friends say....You're not Church of Christ......going to hell.
Depends on what COC you go to. I am COC and neither my chruch nor I believe that..
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:31 am
by Deltamud77
It said whoever. That means anybody and everybody.
It says "whosoever believes in (on) Him", which most certainly does not mean everybody, because only a remnant will be in heaven.
Look, I am a Calvinist and I believe in "free will". Of course a choice has to be made by us. I believe that choice is prompted by the Holy Spirit when presented with the Gospel. Obviously, "whosoever believes in Him" can be limited to those He has prompted to choose Him, because they are necessarily the "whosoever" that HAVE believed in or on Him.
Hayes hit the nail on the head above. It really boils down to semantics.
I grew up Baptist (in a very staunch Baptist family), and probably re-dedicated my life to Christ 10 times as a youth. It was so hard to be sure I was saved because my life was filled with sin. Why would God save me, had I really trusted in Him, etc...? In college I started going to Reformed University Fellowship (RUF - Run by PCA Church) mainly because there were hot girls there. I befriended the minister and we would have hours long discussion (arguments) over the topic of predestination. At his request, I read several, several books on the subject as well as extensive Bible reading. The result...you cannot deny the logic (IMHO), you cannot deny the scripture (IMHO) and there is a relative misunderstanding of Predestination because as good Baptist we are taught that it is a bad word.
To me it is the best thing in the world to realize that by God's Grace, he choose me to follow Him, not the other way around, because as a person riddled with sin, I will choose the wrong thing everytime. Do I deserved to be saved more than the next guy...no way. I am no better than anyone...a wretched sinner. That is the beauty of grace.
Finally and ultimately, I believe that all Christians are going to heaven.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:21 am
by Deltamud77
Here is what I think most of you guys believe based on the post in this thread when discussing Predestination.
Baptists and others: Make the choice to follow Christ without God's prompting or "effectual calling" or "irresistable grace".
Presbyterians: Make choice to follow Christ after God's prompting or effectual calling.
Baptist and others: God opens the door to everyone and everyone can be a Christian.
Presbyterians: Not everyone will go to heaven, God (for whatever reason) chooses those who will be in heaven.
Baptist and others: God does not know who all will be in heaven until they choose Him.
Presbyterians: God knows who all will be in heaven and has known since the beginning.
Baptist and others: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
Presbyterians: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:34 am
by cwink
Deltamud77 wrote:Baptist and others: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
Presbyterians: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
But what is the definition of a Christian... Simply someone who believes in Christ and their actions here on earth have no bearing on their salvation.. That can't be it.. Gotta be more to it than that..
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:55 am
by rustypjr
Deltamud77 wrote:Here is what I think most of you guys believe based on the post in this thread when discussing Predestination.
Baptists and others: Make the choice to follow Christ without God's prompting or "effectual calling" or "irresistable grace".
Presbyterians: Make choice to follow Christ after God's prompting or effectual calling.
I am Baptist and I have never heard that we are called to follow Christ without God calling us. Baptist and others: God opens the door to everyone and everyone can be a Christian.
Presbyterians: Not everyone will go to heaven, God (for whatever reason) chooses those who will be in heaven.
Anyone can be a christian if they choose to. No everyone will not be in heaven only those who have excepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.Baptist and others: God does not know who all will be in heaven until they choose Him.
Presbyterians: God knows who all will be in heaven and has known since the beginning.
I believe God knows everything. He knows who will choose to follow him and who will not. God knows everything.Baptist and others: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
Presbyterians: Believe all Christians are going to heaven.
I believe that all christians will be in heaven but by christian I mean anyone who has excepted Jesus. Because many who call themselves christians are not.
Not trying to argue just saying what I believe. Not saying I am the smartest or perfect that is just what I believe. The thing that really bothers me is religion. Yes I am a baptist but more impotantly I am a christian. We can sit here all day discussing th differences in tradition and will get no where but pissed off. I try to live my life by the Bible the best this poor sinner can. I am not perfect but I can try to be. I mean we can talk predestination, OSAS, baptism, confession, or any other thing about religion and the truth of the matter is none of is will know 100% until we get to see Jesus. I am sorry if that offends anyone but it is the truth. Yes we all believe we are reading the Bible and interpretting it correctly. One thing I know for sure is that Jesus, the Son of God, saved my poor retched soul from the depths of hell and I will spend the rest of my short existence in this foreign world trying to thank and lifting praises to him for that. I can not wait to go HOME. Home is where the heart is and my heart is with Jesus.
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:03 am
by Bigpoppa
Ok guys, I am chiming in a little late. In your opinions, can a person be saved and become so far back slid that there is no outward evidence of Christ in that persons life?
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:23 am
by GulfCoast
God knows who will believe, before you believe. That is but one of the reasons why he is omniscient or "all knowing." If God did not know what is going to happen in the future, with certainty, where did the Prophets get their message from??? If you don't believe in the 3 "O's" of God: Omnisicence, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, then that is pretty much the end of any serious theological discussion. Right up there with not believing Jesus is the Son of God.
The fact that God knows up front if you will or will not accept him, does not make him love you the less, or yearn for you to repent. And it does not take away your free will.
No "effectual call?"
Better get rid of that altar call hymn that goes "Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling....."