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Hayes wrote:Murder is no greater a sin then any other. It to was paid for when he died on the cross and If we truly accepted him and believe in our hearts and then we murder someone we are still saved. We do nothing to earn salvation so how can we do anything to lose it. If that was the case no one and I mean no one would enter it based on that.

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” I know He was talking about taxes to the Roman Empire But does this also say:

You pay your debt to Roman because you have benifited from those things given to you by Roman, their lifestyle and protection. So if you Murder then you will be judged by the law of the land Not by God.


Struggling to understand

This has been a really good discussion and one that has many good points and many pointless points and several points in between.

I keep going back to the scripture where is states that those saved will be "but a remnant." Folks, there are not many included in a "remnant." There will be many of us surpised on the "great gettin' up mornin'." I don't think most of us have any clue as to what it truly means and takes to be saved. I am pretty certain that if the call came today, I, along with most of you, would have a pretty bad day! I simply sin too much and ask forgiveness too little. Now, don't take me wrong. I am not a bad man. Most who know me would tell you that I have had a good life, influenced many for good, done many noble deeds, conducted myself in a professionally and personally acceptable way. But, I am aware of almost every sin I commit, whether and overt act or an action of the heart...how I feel and think.

It is not a complex issue. We must believe in Jesus Christ as a gift to man, who lived a perfect life as a model for us to copy, who died as a perfect sacrifice as a potential pardon for our sin, who arose from the dead as a hope of resurrection for all mankind, and exists today in the Holy Spirit who gives us the power over sin if we are willing. It's that "if we are willing" part that usually trips me up.

That willingness means that I must own my sins by recognizing them as sins, I must ask God, through the gift of his son to forgive me, and work at trying not to repeat that sin. I must try to live a life based on the pattern of Jesus' life, and ask for forgiveness when I fall short. I must make sure that I miss no opportunity to offer what I know in my heart to others.

Remember, I used the word "potential" to describe the offer of pardon. We all have that potential, buyt we also know that potential is the most damnable word in our language when describing someone. It means nothing if it is not actualized, put into motion.

Many of us have potential, few of us will realize it. But, don't give up on me just yet. I'm still a work in progress and believe I have a lot of potential as a Christian! We are all in this together, and we have so much to offer each other.

crow

Okay, and that , at least to me, is a good verse to believe that we can lose our salvation

How can someone be enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and not be saved?

Thanks,

skywalker

2 Peter chapter 2:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

hencutter wrote:

mudsucker wrote:

mudsucker wrote:

ACEINTHEHOLE wrote:Youth Minister here so take it for what it't worth. As a Christian first, then Baptist I belive once saved always saved. So no matter how you die if you are saved then you will not got to hell. As far as the Bible saying it I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible that says if you commit suicide you will go to hell.

So if you die while murdering someone, but call your self saved, you get in at 'da pearly gates?

No one has an answer to this?

If it's muder,then no. Remember , murder is intentional, and God knows the motives of our heart.

OK. For those how do believe this way, Committing suicide is taking one's own life and abortion is taking an unborn's life. I think that may be where "THOSE" Catholics(as someone refered to US Catholics) come up with this premise(sp?). The Catholic church thinks of abortion as murder. What say you all?

Mudsucker, in most cases i would agree with the Catholic church on that one.

yes, driveby, that is my point. from this scripture it appears that someone can be saved and then 'fall away' as stated in the scripture and their end will be worse than before.......do I interpret this wrong?

skywalker

driveby wrote:2 Peter chapter 2:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is the one that really worries me. What fate could a Christian face that is possibly worse than if they were not a Christian in the first place. I wouldn't claim to think that a Christian can ever "loose" his salvation, but doesn't this verse help show that a Christian can give it away based on the actions of his own heart.

There's another verse that may have been mentioned here that echoes the above verse: Heb 10

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

I think Acts chapter 8 is the most compelling example of a Christian whose heart may have changed to the point where he was told to repent and beg for forgiveness. If Simon was saved permanently from the moment he first believed, why would he need to repent and beg God for forgiveness? In chapter 8 we learn that Simon became a Christian, then did something so grievous that it required his additional repentance, and prayer for forgiveness.

Unless this is a specific example of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, it would seem that a Christian can indeed change his own heart condition to the point where it needs to be restored. Doesn't it?

Murder, adultery, throwing a cussing fit, telling a lie, disobedience to your parents (kids) are all sins. In God's eyes any one of those is enough to keep you out of heaven unless your slate has been washed cleaned. We look at murder's devestation from a humanly perspective. God sees all sin as SIN. He is an absolute Holy God who CANNOT be connected to sin. He cannot dwell with you in heaven unless your slate has been cleaned. The only way that slate is cleaned is through Jesus. No other way. There are times when rage has overtaken me, and I commited murder in my heart. That evil inside of me made me jsut as guilty as Ted Bundy. Jesus is bigger than all our sins.

skywalker wrote:yes, driveby, that is my point. from this scripture it appears that someone can be saved and then 'fall away' as stated in the scripture and their end will be worse than before.......do I interpret this wrong?

skywalker

It certainly looks that way to me. As it does with the 2 passages that wildfowler mentions. I also listed the parable of the sower and the seed that fell on stoney ground in a previous post. I'd rather ask for forgiveness and not need it than to need it and not ask.

driveby wrote:2 Peter chapter 2:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Having knowledge of the lord Jesus is not the same as knowing the lord Jesus. The bible tells us that even the devel and his followers know who God is. The versus in 2 peter is teaching about false preaching by false teachers. That read the word and know who God is but do not know God. Again we can hand select certain passages from certain chapters and make them as we want to beleive but I think it is important to look at the entire chapter and the context of it. Not just the 3 versus. Sure if you read just those 3 you can see why you would think that.

Suicide is a sin just like any other sin. If someone has put their faith in Jesus Christ (being saved) sin cannot seperate them from God. So, the answer is no, a person who commits suicide, IF they are a Christian, will not go to hell. We, as Christians, serve a loving, forgiving, and awesome God!

Hayes wrote:

driveby wrote:2 Peter chapter 2:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Having knowledge of the lord Jesus is not the same as knowing the lord Jesus. The bible tells us that even the devel and his followers know who God is. The versus in 2 peter is teaching about false preaching by false teachers. That read the word and know who God is but do not know God. Again we can hand select certain passages from certain chapters and make them as we want to beleive but I think it is important to look at the entire chapter and the context of it. Not just the 3 versus. Sure if you read just those 3 you can see why you would think that.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
These people have "escaped the pollutions of the world". Does this not mean they have been saved? Refer back to 2 Peter 1:4. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Peter is addressing his fellow christians here.

Also verse 15 says of these false teachers, "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;How could they forsake the right way and go astray if they were not traveling the right way to begin with?
We can go all the way back to the first chapter as well. Simon Peter in speaking to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (christians), says in verses 4 through 8 to practice the 7 christian virtues. Why?
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter tells them if they do those things they shall never fall. There's that big 2 letter word there, "if". If that's the case does it not stand to reason that if we do not those things we can fall?

The entire book of 2 Peter has one purpose. To warn christians to not go astray.

driveby wrote:

Hayes wrote:

driveby wrote:2 Peter chapter 2:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Having knowledge of the lord Jesus is not the same as knowing the lord Jesus. The bible tells us that even the devel and his followers know who God is. The versus in 2 peter is teaching about false preaching by false teachers. That read the word and know who God is but do not know God. Again we can hand select certain passages from certain chapters and make them as we want to beleive but I think it is important to look at the entire chapter and the context of it. Not just the 3 versus. Sure if you read just those 3 you can see why you would think that.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
These people have "escaped the pollutions of the world". Does this not mean they have been saved? Refer back to 2 Peter 1:4. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Peter is addressing his fellow christians here.

Also verse 15 says of these false teachers, "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;How could they forsake the right way and go astray if they were not traveling the right way to begin with?
We can go all the way back to the first chapter as well. Simon Peter in speaking to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (christians), says in verses 4 through 8 to practice the 7 christian virtues. Why?
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter tells them if they do those things they shall never fall. There's that big 2 letter word there, "if". If that's the case does it not stand to reason that if we do not those things we can fall?

The entire book of 2 Peter has one purpose. To warn christians to not go astray.

The purpose of II Peter is not to warn christians not to go astray. In his first letter (I Peter) He tells them how to deal with persecution from outside the church.
II Peter: He is telling is people how to deal with false teachers and evildoers wo have come into the church. Chapter 1 He is encouraging growth. Ch 2 is to combat false teachings. Ch3 he is encouraging watchfullness and hope of His return.
You are exactly right, he is writing to christians. He is warning them of FALSE TEACHERS AND THERE DESTRUCITON. That is what the entire chapter 2 is about. V1: But there were also false prophets among the people, jsut as there will be false teachers among you.

Then go on to chapter 3:14 " So then dear friend, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace.

Why would Jesus say make every effort to be found blameless? Because he knows we cant do it. We can try and try but the fact of the matter is we cant live blameless we will not live blameless and its a darn good thing MY/our salvation does not rest on me/us living blameless and me/us not sinning.