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ACEINTHEHOLE wrote:Youth Minister here so take it for what it't worth. As a Christian first, then Baptist I belive once saved always saved. So no matter how you die if you are saved then you will not got to hell. As far as the Bible saying it I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible that says if you commit suicide you will go to hell.

So if you die while murdering someone, but call your self saved, you get in at 'da pearly gates?

great topic. Why is it that God had to give his son to forgive us of our sins?

The way I understand it, I have heard this from several different bible scholars, is that Jesus' death on the cross paid for our sins, past-present-and future. No human on earth can go a day without some type of sin. So through our acceptance of His saving grace I am forgiven (thank God) for whatever I may do wrong. That being said, I don't go around seeing how bad I can mess up on a given day. I try to be a witness for Christ by my actions so that I hopefully present myself as a Christian. My pastor once said "We can never be sinless, but as Christians we should strive to sin less." This is a great thread. Keep it going.

gladtobealive wrote:great topic. Why is it that God had to give his son to forgive us of our sins?

Forgiveness can only come through the shedding of blood. In old testament times they had to offer a goat/lamb/dove, etc. The priest had to do this for them and it had to be a animal without blemish. The best they had. They (the people) could not even do it themselves. They had to allow the priest to go to God on their behalf. This had to be done every year. Jesus (Lamb Of God) was the final sacrice. ONCE AND FOR ALL. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice as He lived a sinless life. When Jesus died on the cross the scripture said that the veil which separated the outer rooms of the temple and the holy of holies (area where the priest offered the sacrifices) was torn. This was God's way of symbolizing that we now could go straight to him and the yearly sacrifices were no longer needed.

henkiller wrote:I agree that Grace is a gift.....do we not have to accept the gift by accepting Christ as our personal savior? And if we can accept the gift can we not at some point reject the gift?

If someone is saved can they not turn totally away from everthing they once believed and cherished? For faith to work don't we have to have some agency.....some choice.

The parable of the sower, Luke chapter 8 verses 6 and 13.

6And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Based on your statement......the sacrifice is perfect and therefore applies to everyone..........therefore everyone will be saved regardless of their actions.

Not at all...that is the point at which "free will" comes into play. Obviously Adam and Eve had free will, but they choose the wrong path. As a result, we are all born into sin.

Presbyterians believe in what is commonly called the 5 Points of Calvinism (In fact, there are many Reformed Baptist churches around that adhere to the Calvinistic doctrine and many Baptist pastors that do also, although they dare not tell their congregation )

The acronym is T.U.L.I.P

T is for total depravity. We are all sinners in need of God's Grace and sin fills our hearts to the extent that we cannot make accurate decisions without God.

U is for unconditional election. This is very controversial to some. It basically means that before man, God choose his "elect" who would be saved. Basically, if God is all knowing, he will know who will choose Him.

L is for limited atonement. Atonement was intended to render complete satisfaction for those and only those whom the Father had chosen before the foundation of the world. Calvinists do not believe that the atonement is limited in its value or power (if the Father had willed it, all the people of all generations could be saved), but rather they believe that the atonement is limited in that it is designed for some and not all. (thanks be to wikipedia for the wordy definition). Once again, controversial to some. It makes sense if you think of it like this...if Christ died for everyone, everyone would go to heaven. It makes no sense that anyone would burn in hell in punishment for sin that had already been paid in full. I know, hard to accept.

I is for irresitible grace.

Based on your statement......the sacrifice is perfect and therefore applies to everyone..........therefore everyone will be saved regardless of their actions.

Not at all...that is the point at which "free will" comes into play. Obviously Adam and Eve had free will, but they choose the wrong path. As a result, we are all born into sin.

Presbyterians believe in what is commonly called the 5 Points of Calvinism (In fact, there are many Reformed Baptist churches around that adhere to the Calvinistic doctrine and many Baptist pastors that do also, although they dare not tell their congregation )

The acronym is T.U.L.I.P

T is for total depravity. We are all sinners in need of God's Grace and sin fills our hearts to the extent that we cannot make accurate decisions without God.

U is for unconditional election. This is very controversial to some. It basically means that before man, God choose his "elect" who would be saved. Basically, if God is all knowing, he will know who will choose Him.

L is for limited atonement. Atonement was intended to render complete satisfaction for those and only those whom the Father had chosen before the foundation of the world. Calvinists do not believe that the atonement is limited in its value or power (if the Father had willed it, all the people of all generations could be saved), but rather they believe that the atonement is limited in that it is designed for some and not all. (thanks be to wikipedia for the wordy definition). Once again, controversial to some. It makes sense if you think of it like this...if Christ died for everyone, everyone would go to heaven. It makes no sense that anyone would burn in hell in punishment for sin that had already been paid in full. I know, hard to accept.

I is for irresitible grace. God touches the heart of the person to be saved. If God decides for you to be saved, you most certainly will, as a result you decide to follow Christ. I bet everyone who is saved that is reading this didn't just up and decide to be saved, it came from the word of a pastor, parent, friend, etc...Presbyterians believe this is God's prompting.

P is for Preservation of the Saints. Once saved always saved...if God chooses you, you will not get away.

Presbyterians believe that we have free will, but due to our sinful nature (as Cam stated, far worse than most realize) we will choose the wrong thing every time. God has to change our heart or prompt us in the right direction.

Note: I did not grow up Presbyterian and I realize that this sounds very weird to many people. I came to this understanding after much research. Plain language in the Bible supports all of this above. By the way, this does not mean that God fearing deacon will go to hell and Tommy Lee to heaven.

SORRY ABOUT THE UNFORSEEN DOUBLE POST

Deltamud77 wrote:U is for unconditional election. This is very controversial to some. It basically means that before man, God choose his "elect" who would be saved. Basically, if God is all knowing, he will know who will choose Him.

Yeah, i'm familiar with predestination....the trick of course is that we don't know who the "chosen" are....and once again you infer that we do have to "do" something to accept grace by saying we choose Him. Although now that you've come out of your predestiny shell I know that's not what you mean.

Deltamud77 wrote:It makes sense if you think of it like this...if Christ died for everyone, everyone would go to heaven. It makes no sense that anyone would burn in hell in punishment for sin that had already been paid in full. I know, hard to accept.

Not so hard to accept if you're o.k. with predestination.

I have two problems with predestination......

1. How do you know that you are one of the chosen? And if you are doesn't it carry some responsibility to do good regardless of whether or not works lead to salvation?

2. Why are all the "not-chosen" here? They have no hope. Their entire existence is meaningless. Why would a perfect God make so many "mistakes".

Let me drop my .02, Please know this is just a question, no 'calling out' by any means. I have had this conversation with many a friend. How would you interpret Hebrews 6:4-7 or II Peter 2:20-22?

To me, the issue of OSAS is very open to interpretation. While I do not hold to this belief, I know several people that do, including my wife! As long as we can agree 'who' Jesus Christ is and that through Him is the only way to salvation, then I really have no arguments!!

skywalker

II Peter 1

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Here is your 12 Step Program!!!!! From this is sounds like we are a WIP. And can fall from grace. Sort of along the lines of Free Will.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins

henkiller wrote:I have two problems with predestination......

1. How do you know that you are one of the chosen? And if you are doesn't it carry some responsibility to do good regardless of whether or not works lead to salvation?

2. Why are all the "not-chosen" here? They have no hope. Their entire existence is meaningless. Why would a perfect God make so many "mistakes".

To your first problem. The whole point is that you don't know, you just have to trust in the Lord

To your second problem. Without coruption there is no perfection. They are here to make the evils of a sin filled life apparent to us.

1. How do you know that you are one of the chosen? And if you are doesn't it carry some responsibility to do good regardless of whether or not works lead to salvation?

You know the same way you "know" you are a Christian. No difference whatsoever. It does absolutely carry the same "Great Commission" responsibility to make disciples of men and to emulate Christ or do good. God is in the ends (conversion to Christianity) and the means (sharing the Gospel).

2. Why are all the "not-chosen" here? They have no hope. Their entire existence is meaningless. Why would a perfect God make so many "mistakes".

Good question that I don't know the answer to. I know God doesn't make mistakes. You and I both agree that not everyone is going to heaven, so either way, do you call them mistakes, whether they are "predestined" or not? God created them and they are not going to heaven. I think God is glorified not strictly by Christians, but non-Christians, animals, plants and his creation in general. Is it a mistake that there is cancer, diabetes, famine, etc.?

You will admit that God is ALL Knowing I am sure. Therefore, if something or someone knows everything, then that thing or person has an inability to learn anything new. If God doesn't know who will become Christians, then he necessarily learns that when they accept Him. On the flip side, He would also learn something when they reject Him. Therefore, He could not be an All Knowing God. At that point he ceases to be God.

Note: I am not by any means an expert in this, or any other, field. I am not a pastor, far from it. I am an everyday redneck, duck hunter, deer hunter, lover of God, family, good beer and cigars. I don't have all of the answers, but I know what I believe and I don't believe without research.

Deltamud77 wrote:Note: I am not by any means an expert in this, or any other, field. I am not a pastor, far from it. I am an everyday redneck, duck hunter, deer hunter, lover of God, family, good beer and cigars. I don't have all of the answers, but I know what I believe and I don't believe without research.

Yeah, right there with ya! I appreciate you saying this.

My only problem with most of my protestant friends is that it doesn't seem to bother them that so many people are going to hell for no particular reason.

If you're born in a remote part of the world and never hear of Christ...going to hell.

If you have been decieved by men and taught to believe in a lie.......going to hell.

My Church of Christ friends say....You're not Church of Christ......going to hell.

My predestination friends say......not chosen....going to hell


How do you reconcile this with "God is Love"? I love the old child's hymn that states, "Jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible tells me so...."

If I'm not predestined....does he love me?

Does he love buddhists? muslims? atheists? And if he does love them why wouldn't he give them an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved?

I have been reading this with great intrest as I asked my preacher about it one time and his answer was:"IF YOU HAVE ACCEPTED JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR,KILLING YOURSELF WILL NOT CONDEM YOU TO HELL,ALTHOUGH YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR YOUR SINS AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT,JUST AS WE ALL WILL"

besides I was back slidden for 8 years running from God and when I finally ran back to where I left God I was having a hard time accepting the fact that God could/would still love me the way he did before and after going to a preacher and getting counsling this is the answer to what the questin at hand from the book of Romans 8 :

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am in a denomination that practices predestination. I simply have been going there because that is where my folks chose to go. I do not, however, believe in predestination. I think it is balogne. I had an uncle who was extremely out of it and depressed and he hung himself with his own belt. He was not in his right mind, nobody would be to do something such as that. I just honestly don't believe God would condemn a person to hell who is in that sort of mind frame.