Bible Question

[Bill Collector]

Where's Benny when we need him? He would settle this once and for all.

[jsherwin]

Another question:

How does a person know if he is "saved". I have known deacons that lead prayer on Sunday Morning but was at my daddy's beer joint the night before living it up. Going to church does not "save" you I do not believe, but what if a person lives a good life but hardly graces the door of a church, is he saved if he believes in God and tries to live a good life.

Boy is this a good one. SEVERAL STATISTICS show that MINIMUM 60% of the church is dieing and going to HELL. Why do you think the word HYPOCRITE (sp?) comes up so much.
I have struggled with people saying JOHN 3:16 as a free passage way. Honestly the worst verse in the bible. Satan believed, 85% of America says they believe.
The question is have you surrendered you mind, body and soul to the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. You no what the best verse for a Born again Christian JOHN 3:16.
Get my point.

[crowder critter]

good posts fellows. I asked the question about being saved, as I know of people who are good as gold and would give you the shirt off their back, but they never go to church but they are god fearing people. Then again there are the ones that go to church every sunday and live a not so Christian life Mon-Sat. Which one of these types of people are better off or is one better than the other?

[skywalker]

Crowder, if neither are 'saved' then neither one is better off, just my opinion. We are told in the Bible that many people will tell the Lord that they did many wonderful things in His name, but He wills say, depart from Me, I never knew you (paraphrased). To me, this means no matter how 'good' you are or how many 'shirts you give off of your back', unless you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, (the only Son of God, who was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, was crucified for my sins, rose on the 3rd day, and ascended to heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father,) then they cannot enter heaven, which means that neither are better than the other.

skywalker

[tombstone]

Since suicide is a sin, and a man takes his own life, he nevers has a chance to repent for his sin, does he? How can he ask for forgiveness if he is dead? Or can you ask for forgiveness before you commit the sin?

None of us were alive when Jesus paid our debt. The power in his death was sufficient for ALL the sins we commited in the future. EVERY sin we commited is/was in the future. The sins we commit tomorrow will be forgiven just like the ones we commit 20 yrs from now if we have, by faith, taken the gift that Jesus offered. Being a Christian does not mean being perfect. It also does not mean going out and sinning just because you know you will be forgiven. If you think like that, you better perform a 'heart check". So many people try to compare their lives to other Christians. Other Christians are human and will sin and will let you down. The only measuring stick is Jesus. What kind of Savior would he be if the power of sin could tear you away from him. His grace and power is sufficient for any and all of them. You just have to accept the gift by faith and try to please HIM

[rustypjr]

Crowder, if neither are 'saved' then neither one is better off, just my opinion. We are told in the Bible that many people will tell the Lord that they did many wonderful things in His name, but He wills say, depart from Me, I never knew you (paraphrased). To me, this means no matter how 'good' you are or how many 'shirts you give off of your back', unless you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, (the only Son of God, who was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, was crucified for my sins, rose on the 3rd day, and ascended to heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father,) then they cannot enter heaven, which means that neither are better than the other.

skywalker

Amen!

[Deltamud77]

"it is by Grace you have been saved through faith, it is not of your selves, it is the gift of God, do that no man can boast."


What a person does or does not do has no bearing on "getting in to Heaven" or being "saved."

Heaven is a Free Gift that is not Earned or Deserved. Man is a sinner and cannot save himself. God is a merciful and does not want to punish us ("God is Love"), but he is also a Just God and must punish sin. (He will not leave the guilty unpunished...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.)

How does He solve this? Jesus. What did Jesus do? He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and purchase a place for us in heaven.

How do we accept this gift? Through faith.

What is faith? It is not just head knowledge (I know about Abe Lincoln and Robert E. Lee...most know about Jesus but he is essentially a historical figure to them). It is not temporary faith either. (Your kid gets sick, you pray, he gets well, you don't pray or place trust again until another hardship).

Saving faith is trusting is Jesus Christ alone for eternal life. It is kind of like sitting in a chair. You may believe it can hold you up, but you don't know until you sit in it. Same thing.

If you are sitting on the thrown of your heart, you must step down and ask God to sit there...to lead, guide and direct.

All good deeds, acts of kindness, shirt giving, etc. are simply done in gratitude for God's saving Grace. Sure non-Christians can do great and wonderful things (and I think God does these things through them as a sovereign God), but these things cannot get them into Heaven.

By the way, to say that a person could lose there salvation is to say that Christ's sacrifice was imperfect. If you see a person who looked to be saved and them completely fell away, never to repent, they probably were not a Christian in the first place.

[hencutter]

Great Post. As a Lay Minister who deals with a lot of folks in the hospital, i have come across this question in the past.While i don't agree with Deltamud77's take on Enternal Security , ( Gal 5:20,21) i don't believe that suicide automaticly condems one's soul. I have ministered to folks in the past who suffered from a lot of pain for years, having there minds affected by pain-killing drugs.After years of these perscriptions, and continued pain, these folks chose to take there life. ( i can think of 2 cases in the past 3 years like this).
jsherwin, you are correct in your statistics, many in "the church" have never been born again.Billy Graham himself stated that most of American church members have never had this experience.
camlock, i have to disagree with your staement that we all sin everyday. A close relationship with Jesus can help a person out of this We are to "go and sin no more"as Jesus said. Now, i am not trying to tell you that i never sin, but it is possible to have a relationship with Him in which it is not a routine , daily thing.
My condolences to all of you who have lost a loved one to suicide.I pray that God gives you "that peace that passes all understanding

[Deltamud77]

While i don't agree with Deltamud77's take on Enternal Security , ( Gal 5:20,21) i don't believe that suicide automaticly condems one's soul.

and

camlock, i have to disagree with your staement that we all sin everyday. A close relationship with Jesus can help a person out of this We are to "go and sin no more"as Jesus said.

That is interesting...pleased explain further. I am not being argumentative, I am just interested in your point of view.

Galations 5:20-21 reads, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I agree that is all sin and but for God's saving grace, would condemn us to a hot place. That is why I don't think suicide sends you to hell. Christ's sacrifice paid for all of my sin: past, present and future.

[henkiller]

I hesitate to comment or ask a question because religion is of course a very personal thing and some people cannot discuss their faith without getting very upset when someone disagrees....anyway

"it is by Grace you have been saved through faith, it is not of your selves, it is the gift of God, do that no man can boast."

I agree that Grace is a gift.....do we not have to accept the gift by accepting Christ as our personal savior? And if we can accept the gift can we not at some point reject the gift?

If someone is saved can they not turn totally away from everthing they once believed and cherished? For faith to work don't we have to have some agency.....some choice.

What a person does or does not do has no bearing on "getting in to Heaven" or being "saved."

How do we accept this gift? Through faith..

Don't you see the conflict in these statements? On the one hand you say that our actions have no bearing but then you say we must have faith. If our actions (faith) can allow us to accept the gift of grace why can't we then at some point reject it?

By the way, to say that a person could lose there salvation is to say that Christ's sacrifice was imperfect.

Christ's sacrifice was and is perfect...no argument. However, we are not perfect and can fall away. If we accept the gift of grace through our faith and then lose our faith how can we still gain the reward without consequences?

If you see a person who looked to be saved and them completely fell away, never to repent, they probably were not a Christian in the first place.

But what if they were saved? What happens to those who accept the gift of grace and are saved and then fall away and don't repent?

I hope this doesn't come across as confrontational. These questions have always nagged me.

[Deltamud77]

No confrontation from me henkiller...we all have our own beliefs. I simply believe that if we believe God is a sovereign, all knowing, all powerful God, then it stands to reason that if he makes a sacrifice that had to be made (Jesus) because of his nature (merciful yet just), then that sacrifice must be perfect. If that sacrifice still has to rely wholey and completely on sinners making up their mind to accept and hold on to that gift, then it is not perfect.

I could get more involved into exactly why I believe what I believe and why I think the Bible backs that up, but being a reformed Presbyterian, I would probably start more fires than I would be putting out....going against the intent of a great post.

[hencutter]

First and foremost,anyone that does not agree with me, I still count you as a brother in Christ. In other words, we can disagree on the Once-Saved-Always Saved theory, and i'm not going to count you as a 'lost" person.There are many family members of mine that do not agree with me on this subject and i know that they have a relationship with Jesus.After going to a denomination most of my life ( in which i have many family members who have graduated with various levels of Minisery degrees from that denomination's colleges- and 1 with a PHD- he has taught in those colleges!) i began to search the scriptures for myself, oftentimes during a break at work, or in the bathroom at home.Just trying to understand Him better, and after a period of time came across several scriptures that led me to no longer follow the O.S.A.S. theroy. Just off the top of my head,Eph.5:5,6 Rev.22:15 and Jude 7.I have already mentioned Gal 5:20,21.
As far as the statement that i made concering sinning everyday,i don't think that we as Christians should accept what the world says and does. We are to be "called out " and 'set apart". Again, i am not claiming that i go thru life without ever sinning. But it is possible to get to a point where it is not an everyday part of life. The reference that i made about Jesus saying "go and sin no more" was the woman at the well.If we think that we are okay to go about in a sinful nature, just as the world does, then we are no different than they are.
Again, i am not disagreeing with anyone just to be onery, and we can certaintly agree to disagree on this subject.
And my apologies to the originators of this thread, it seems that we have hi-jacked it!

[Deltamud77]

Hencutter...friendly question based on those verses, do you believe that Christ paid for your sins up to the point at which you accepted Him and it is up to you after that, or that he paid for all of your sins that you have and will commit in total?

It seems to me that if a person bases "keeping their salvation" on not committing the sins listed in those verses, then they are basing their salvation on their works plus God's Grace as opposed to God's Grace alone.

[camlock]

camlock, i have to disagree with your staement that we all sin everyday. A close relationship with Jesus can help a person out of this We are to "go and sin no more"as Jesus said. Now, i am not trying to tell you that i never sin, but it is possible to have a relationship with Him in which it is not a routine , daily thing.

Well, I won't debate that there are strong believers who are living and walking much closer to Christ than others and than myself for sure. But, speaking as a generalization we all are poor pittiful sinners compared to Christ, and yes, on a daily basis we are...or at least how I have been taught, we are all very very very far from truly walking in his footsteps...whether it's a thought of lust or a downright public sin...SIN is SIN...if you make it through a day without an unpure thought, or unpure action in relation to the way Christ walked this earth...you are a heckuva man of God...

[henkiller]

No confrontation from me henkiller...we all have our own beliefs. I simply believe that if we believe God is a sovereign, all knowing, all powerful God, then it stands to reason that if he makes a sacrifice that had to be made (Jesus) because of his nature (merciful yet just), then that sacrifice must be perfect. If that sacrifice still has to rely wholey and completely on sinners making up their mind to accept and hold on to that gift, then it is not perfect.

The sacrifice can be and is perfect....we are not.

Based on your statement......the sacrifice is perfect and therefore applies to everyone..........therefore everyone will be saved regardless of their actions.

I don't think you really believe that......do you?