for the original question.. I like the reference to Romans 8-38,39. I think that covers it, and believe the “nor any other creature†includes us, ourselves. I hope folks in such a situation can find peace in that, imo that’s what its there for..
bobo5, I had a good idea of your cards before you put em on the table, from your first post. I'm somewhat familiar with c.o.c. doctrine and typical responses, but at the same time will not lump you with any person, as your comment re: not automatically condemning for lack of membership, separates you from some I know.
one of your posts I do want to directly address.. well, I really don’t want to, but I can’t hep it…
Here is what the Bible really says about predestination if you would like to take the time to read it.
with you being entitled to state that, after reading it, I feel equally entitled to state:
This is not what the Bible really says about predestination, or even says.
fair enough? and only because it’s a paper expressing a man’s opinion/interpretation. which leads to another issue, the Bible.. it would be impossible for us to ever be on the same page so to speak, if we're not even in the same book. I don't know how many different versions are out there, but I have a -Holy Bible, King James Version (1611)-. the original version. I noticed you referenced a new version.. I have no idea what the author of the paper quotes, but want to point out a quick example..
under his ‘harmonious teaching of the bible’... his effort is to quote scripture that dis-proves pred/election, and referenced (Acts 10:34-35)
his quote - "of a truth I perceive God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him"
THE Bible - "of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accept
ed with him.
what a difference a changed tense and preposition can make. interesting how the latter meshes with the many other times works are presented as the evidence, not the means..
in Acts-10, check out 44-48. after peter spoke, the Holy Ghost fell on all there, and the jews realized the gentiles were blessed as they were..
47 reads: (in the 1611 Bible) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which
have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
looks like they're about to baptize a few here, that were obviously already children of God, as is apparent by the gift of the Holy Spirit. something to at least consider for those under the impression that baptism/joining the church is a requirement of salvation..
bobo5, bud, like stated earlier, no intention to offend, but I think you might agree, that some of the folks that amen’d your original post on ‘the plan of salvation’, don’t understand the significance placed on ‘entering into his church’ as, in my experience, many c.o.c. believe, or they obviously wouldn’t have agreed. and my reference to the article posted (as your free to believe whatever you will), is with the author, and what I believe a gross misrepresentation of the original scripture and its meaning. on a side note, I do not believe anyone was ‘elected’ to go to hell, but we would all be condemned, if not for the grace of God.
in this thread, there’s been more than one mention of salvation by grace. scriptures quoted that plainly state it is fact, etc. then, EVERY time, its followed by a ‘but’ or a ‘if you will’…. me no comprendo. if it is of grace and not of works, then there is NO ‘but’ or ‘if you will’… absolutely anything required of man(works) makes grace, not grace.
deltamud77, some of the calvanistic views, I’m in agreement with, for good reason.. a couple times I thought you had it, but then you’d messed it up
either way, many of the scriptures you referenced are important in proving the existence of the principles of predestination, election, adoption etc. I’m always amazed at the efforts to dismiss them, to call such ‘bologne’ when it is scripture, or more recently the effort to redefine their meaning/then change the Bible to fit. the arminian world is mighty crafty..
you also made mention that some ‘reformed’ baptist churches adhere to similar doctrine. you got that one backwards. the ‘reformed’ are the modern day southern/missionary baptist etc. it’s a matter of record, per the ‘black rock address of 1832’, when a division was made known in the baptist church. a point when the the conservative addressed their concern and refusal to participate in the various newly adopted doctrines and practices, which differed from traditional baptist standards. the conservative/unchanged were then referred to as ‘old school’, common today as ‘primitive’ baptist. as with any, there are left fielders, namely ‘absoluters’, they’re not represented here.
lots of questions asked pertaining to who and why, that are answered in Romans. I gather that its not my place to ask who, or question God’s ways or intensions, and I’m confident that in the end, it will be perfect according to his will.
imho, there is an automatic tendency to relate the word ‘saved’ with eternal salvation. if done, there seems to be contradiction with regards to true salvation by grace. I see 2 options.. either change meanings of words and re-write the Bible to better fit them. or, realize God has a kingdom here and now. a kingdom of the spirit, that believers are able to be a part of.. can be saved to with understanding/knowledge in obedience and can certainly turn away from, in turn, separating themselves from God’s blessings, here in this world.
I use to like the idea that I might have some control, or part in, my salvation. but after being blessed to(and it is a blessing brutha) realize how incapable I am, how God’s grace is completely sufficient, in the sacrifice of his perfect son, my savior/friend/intercessor,, well, I have no choice but to believe the latter.
to know in your heart all this is real.., this understanding is a gift. with it comes desire to be obedient, to be part of the church, and fear for not being obedient. as seperation from God after this point of understanding his grace, instructions etc. is worse than previous ignorance in unbelief.
oh well, theres a different take. I don't intend to, or think I can, 'save' anybody. don't expect to change anyone's opinions. and suspect I'm the biggest, most wretched of a sinnin machine to ever type on here. and if I offended, I apologize. yall carry on.
