Dog training??

[tennduckdog]

Another great kennel is Wildrose kennels in Oxford, MS. Mike Stewart uses a low pressure training program that really turns out calm and obedient dogs. I think that many first time dog buyers think that they need a field trial dog to fetch their ducks when the only thing they need is a nice quiet companion. You could have the best lining and handling dog in the country and if he is jumping around the blind, breaking,whining and flaring off ducks, what good is he. Even if your dog doesnt retrieve a bird, if he doesn't ruin the hunt, he will still be a joy to have in the blind.
Two weeks ago I went hunting with some friends and at the boat ramp there was this guy that had a monster of a yellow lab probably 90-100 pounds. He was bragging about the titles that his dog had and the pedigree and what not. Well he proved to us how good his titled dog was about thirty minutes after shooting started when I shot at a duck and he heard the shot go off. It sounded like a quarter horse jumping out of that boat followed by his proud owner yelling at the top of his lungs and then shocking him for about the next three minutes so he would come back. My dog didn't know what the heck was happening. So, my advice to you would be to put all ego aside and really take a look at what you want your dog to do. If you want a dog that is calm, steady, and really breed for hunting I would go with one of the british labs. The wildrose web site has tons of information worth reading at http://www.uklabs.com and mike is very helpful to talk to about choosing the right dog for you and its training.

Good luck

Bryan

[goosebruce]

I always wondered whut they carried in those purses. I bet its a snickers bar, in case they have a set of water marks... gotta get hungry waiting on that! hehehe. Sorry, nohere started it! travis

[goosebruce]

SBE, no dog is born to be steady... quit reciting marketing hype for fact. The dog in your example has training issues, not genetic issues. I assure you not all lining and marking field trial bred dogs act like that, espeically not the 4 hrch dogs I hunt with weekly. And when ya have a 200 yard sailer, they DO know whats going on.

I did have a couple of cast refusals today at about 250 yards. Sun was in his eyes. Don't think genetics caused that. hehe. Had to call back in, and walk out a levee to change angle, and get sun from behind my back. 3 whistles & casts this time. Next bird splashed water on me and my dog. Funny, he didnt move, nor make a sound. travis

[tennduckdog]

Goose, the entire point of my post was to warn him not to get too much dog. I personally have a lab out of field trial lines. She is an excellent dog for me. I have been training my own dogs ever since I was ten years old and am experienced enough to handle a dog like her as well as turn her into the type of dog I am looking for. But, for most people she would never have worked out as well as she is right now. As far as the "marketing hype for fact" could you tell me where in my post did I say that anyone has a dog or breeds dogs that produce naturally steady pups. To save you the time, I never said that. In fact that is one of the reasons that I recomended wildrose is because of the emphasis on training steady and quiet dogs. The difference in the training and breeding practices between the USA and the Brits is quite broad. One of the reason for it is because their dogs are disqualified for ANY degree of unsteadiness or whining. Their field trials are held on an actual hunt rather than a standard course where the last handler is at a disadvantage from the first. So, years of breeding for these desirable traits does give the british a dog more suitable for hunting than field trial breed American labs. As for your dogs doing a 250 yard blind, congrats! You must have some great dogs. By the way my next dog is going to be a black lab from wildrose and is scheduled to be born this july. Bryan

[Super Black Eagle]

your nickname, handle or whatever you want to call it, is very original, keep up the good work.

Trav and Company, please don't get us confused.

Now,
A good dog is a good dog! but around here the black dogs are going to win the vote everytime.

I just wanted to be different, so I got a Boykin, and she is testing my patience. Force fetch started last week, we still haven't gotten hold!! But we are working on it. I got 'til next December, right? Just having fun right now, while both of us are learning.

As far as kennels, there are bunches to choose from.
Online Labs and Wildrose are just a few,
The only folks I know personally are the Harps at Twin Oaks Kennels in Eudora, they are great people and the have turned out some really good dogs.

Trav, maybe Rowdy needs some Avery camo sunglasses!!
250 yd blind, that is pretty impressive!

Where can I get on of those membership forms for the HRC?
I would like to be a member, and I lost the last one.
That is if y'all don't mind having a little brown dog in y'alls 'Labs only' club.

hbrown, Those guys at Southern Flight know there stuff. Go see them, they can help you out, and I sent you a PM

SBE Sr.

[gator]

now, were did i leave my can of worms...ooohh, there it is and someone's done opened up da can...hehe...i would tell ya that travis has forgotten more bout dawg training than most will ever know, but i think it's gonna be funner to watch...tally-ho, gator

[goosebruce]

'If you want a dog that is calm, steady, and really breed for hunting I would go with one of the british labs' is your quote sbe(2). How could I think anything other than regurtated marketing hype with a quote like that? You started off well praising mike stewarts 'training pratices' for prouducing a steady well mannered dog, and I'll go along with that 100%. But to tell people if they want a calm steady dog really breed for hunting, they better go british is crap.

How can a brit dog be really breed for hunting when they don't even hunt? They line them up, and have a person make tame birds fly, and they have someone else to shoot the birds, and then the judge decides who gets what bird. Thats not hunting, the 'british labs' so touted where never bred to go rough shooting (as the brits call it). When they do go rough shooting, they typically use springers, not labs. Funny aint it?

Your buddies 100 pound yellow peice of crap wasn't trained properly. Odds are, he isn't from ft lines, cause I only know of one current ft line that has big booty dogs like that and they are choclate, and I wouldnt breed to a line that produces 100 pound dogs anyway. But genetics had nothing to do with his ill manners, training did. Had mike stewart trained that dog, he'd sat, and watched quietly, and picked up the chickens. Had I trained that dog, he'd sat, and watched quietly, and picked up the chickens. The dogs problem was training, probably owner too, not genetics. Funny aint it?

Most dogs are ill mannered pieces of crap in a blind. Go to any public boat ramp, and sit and listen to people yell at their dogs. 90% of those dogs are back yard bred dogs, NOT ft lines, and NOT british lines. Can a back yard bred dog sit quietly and listen, and pick up birds. Sure. Training, NOT genetics. Funny aint it?

Generations of selective breeding? Nothing is more selective than ft lines, nothing. Only thing is, performance is the goal, not something like sitting and being quiet, that is far and away, training, not genetics. If you have spent generations and generations breeding for a dog to sit, something you can teach any dog in minutes, and solidfy in days, you haven't accomplished much with your breeding program have you? Funny aint it? Yet when it comes to marking talent, desire, hart, and perservernce, these things while influenced by training, are GENETIC. And ft lines prove these dogs have these items. Any dog can sit... not every dog hits 30 degree water hard for the 20th time that day.

Do the parents of your unborn puppy have ofa clearneces or is that also not ness as generations of selective breeding say so? Oh, and when a brit dog does have hip problems, they now say its environment. Can't speak for your breeder, and I hope you never have to worry about it, but I do know thats standard marketing hype on this whole gig.

Want to say your tickled with your brit lab, with stewart or any other trainers program, and you'll buy another one, thats a true statement, and Im glad for you. But when you say 'If you want a dog that is calm, steady, and really breed for hunting I would go with one of the british labs' thats marketing hype and thats all it is.

With the exception of a very few lines, there isn't such a thing as 'too much dog' for a person. What there is, is people who's last dog was a peice of crap, because they never spent the time, effort, or money to do anything with the dog, and they are looking for an answer, and someone comes along and says, it wasnt your fault, your dog was bred too hi strung. Reality proves that untrue, as most of the people buying into this have never SEEN a dog from real ft lines ( one titled dog 5 generations back on one side aint it either), let alone owned or trained one. An untrained dog is a pain in the blind, doesnt matter if hes hot, or back yard bred, or british, hes a pain because hes untrained.

But when its time to work, aint nothing like a kick booty black dog to round em on up. travis

[tennduckdog]

Goose, I now see what the confusion is all about. I did not intend to come across as saying that all you have to do is buy a wildrose pup and you would have a ready made bonified duck dog that is naturally steady. As you stated there simply is no such pup. My position is that wildrose breeds dogs for the desirable qualities that duck hunters look for. By the way, every brood bitch and stud dog is ofa and cerf'd. The bitch that I am getting my pup out of is Rose Of Glen "millie" FTW, I have handled her countless times and it has always been a pleasure. The stud is Baldonian Baron, who came in third place in the British national a few years back and is also well recognized as being a solid producer, has produced many ftch's. I have also seen both of their pups, but this will be their first breeding together. As far as the ofa I do know that the british do have a hip scoring system but it is not exactly like ours. they use a number system with each side being scored seperatly so, you could have a dog with 4/3 hips which would probably fall as excellent in ofa or you could have 18/19 which would be poor. Obviously the higher the score is the worse the hips are with 0/0 being perfect.I believe that the front legs are done in a similar way. Since you are into the ukc hunt tests with your four dogs, I would suggest that you attend the trial that wildrose puts on every year. I think that it is at the end of march but don't quote me. Anyone can enter and it is really interesting. You can win prizes and bragging rights. Last time there was some pretty tough competition. I think that it would give you a more realistic view of a british trial even though it does have some elements of a hunt test. By the way, this is my first post and if this is any indication of the crowd I think I'll feel right at home. Bryan

[chance]

SBE---I don't think this competion is open to anyone. In fact I believe it is by invitation only. It is more important to look at qualities of sire and dam than to look at nationality. I believe the hype over the "more desirable" qualities of the English bred retrievers is mostly advertising. Wanna see anhyper active, American bred retriever in action? Call me. Oh by the way, trained by Steve Vires at Online Labs.

[goosebruce]

SBE (2), good post. Thats all i ever wanted from ya.

I know more about british trials than you think I do. Ive pinched handled a few ftch dogs in american hunt tests.. that is, after a 6 months to a year of training so they could run a decent blind and quit looking at your face when the birds go down. hehe. Havent seen an import YET that could smack a seasoned or senior test without addational training. Once again, thats training, and not genetics, so that in itself is not indictive of the dog.

A good friend of mine has placed second in the wildrose trial twice (with a golden). He enjoyed it, and defiently said it was 'different' than anything he had ever ran (he runs everything cept ft's). I almost pissed on myself when he described the breaking test in the first event, when they threw 150 tennis balls and coke bottles out of the woods at the dogs. When that whole hub-ub came up, I used to post on fetchpup much to milners chagrin. He'd never answer me about entering that trial (in a thread about that trial) or any other question I ever asked. Since thats where my friend got involved, Id say it was me personally he didnt care for, since he didn't have any knowledge of whut I would have brung (that was before my big dawg was a big dawg, and I was gonna be loaned a grhrch to run the trial). Bad enough for something be to questionable when ya judged (which I never care cause either way I think its funny), but to be questionable about who can enter... well, lets just say I didnt pursue it any further. Could I have, and got in? Maybe. But whuts the point.

Brit hip numbers aren't all they are cracked up to be. I'd be glad to email ya some hip clearence certifcates and xrays if you'd like. Like i said, I have no knowledge of your breeder and hip questions, but I do know thats a big problem right now... and will get bigger when all these guys start breeding their brit dogs together. Most will never push their dogs hard enough, or be knowledgeable enough to see the signs on a young dog, nor know enough to have their dogs cleared before breeding. If your breeder DOES have ofa clearences (the real american deal), Id feel much better about it if I was you. The brit clearences arent enough, in my expereince.

Remind me to tell ya bout the best british dog in the world sometime. They washed him in england even with some wins, cause he's too 'animated'. If they where all like spud daddy, Id have a union jack on my dog box. travis

[WAB3]

I would agree with Goosebruce that its 99% in the training rather than the dogs country of origin.Generalizations about American and Britsh dogs are inaccurate and a disservice to both.Good dogs and bad dogs if they come from decent field stock are more a reflection of their owners and training. I know of British dogs who are maniacs and American dogs who are rock steady and quiet.I have seen finished dogs sold to owners who did not take the time to learn the basics of handling become the dissapointed owners of worthless dogs within 6 months.I think the best way to choose is to set your goals ahead of time about what you want from your dog.If you want to run Ft's or HT's at a high level then a "British" training program is probably not the easiest way to get there.I know Mike and he is a good trainer and honest about what to expect from his training.Idon't ,however, have the impression that his program is "low pressure"-I think many have that impression because he rarely uses a collar.A trainer is important but the biggest factor is the owner-not the dog.Whatever trainer you use go and visit often and learn everything you can about the program because training must be continued as long as you want to keep your dog performing at the level he was at when he left the trainer.BTW,Ihunt with the guy whose dog won the Wildrose trial last year.The dog was half British and half American FT stock.They have no connection to Wildrose and had never been there before-he simply entered his hunting dog that he trained himself.

[goosebruce]

WAB3, log in and stick around bro... good post.

I realized after I read your remark about the trial I sounded like I suspected a fix... sorry, I didnt mean that. I meant it was jacked up. I already spend 2 weeks a year at a jacked up retreiver event, I didnt want to spend any more time at one that the entires where limited. My mouth kept me out of the first one, not my dog... hehe. I never pursued it any further, because I thought, and still think, its jacked up to decide on who can enter any event. travis

[hbrown]

Didn't mean to start WW3..

[goosebruce]

Are you kidding? This is civil. Talk about something REALLY emotional like rubber duckies or bumper in dog games and see folks get wild.

People love their dogs man. And the ones that don't, suck. travis

[The White Perch]

Anybody can enter the Wildrose British Trial--I think the entry fee is something like $25.00--Give it a try!!