Balance....

[cdwyer]

I have been thinking about balance seriously for the last 18 months and spent two days in a pit with Scott Dewey picking his brain. Scott is one of the few pros that I have talked with that seems to think out of the box a little more so than some of the others that I have had the opportunity to spend some time with.

So here is what I am getting at….

I have a 18 month old female that seems to be pretty smart. After force fetch which she went through very easily, started force to pile. Most of you have seen my kennel and know my set up. I set up a 60-75 yard pile between my kennel and swim-by pond. As she got towards the end of force to pile, I would walk up to the center point of the swim-by on the same line as my pile and send her across the pond to a pile on the opposite shore. While doing this, we were working on three handed casting and a mini-T in a different part of property. Before duck season started she was for the most part already forced across water by doing the pile work the way I was doing it. She seemed to excel with the force across water process and seemed to me that she enjoyed the breaking up of the pile work, the water was cool and became kind of a mental & physical treat at the end of the pile work. Once we had completed the whistle sit, I could go back to the pile by the swim-by pond, send her to the pile and every third or fourth send, I would site her and cast her over across the pond which was is the “cast off shore” drill. A couple of sessions later & over the course of several sessions, I got her to the point that I could send her across, stop her, & cast her left & right to the piles. So in a sense she was doing the water T before really getting deep into the land T. Once we started the land T she really never missed a beat after the first session. Then duck season started and she has hunted a little bit. She has been the best young duck dog I have ever had. She is hunting like she already has had a season under her belt.

I know form a FT standpoint to have a young dog run by or beside water is a cardinal sin. They want the water thing to be black & white, if there is water in the picture, they are expected to hit it. Asking Scott the pros & cons of what I have done so far with this dog, his concern was the dog obviously running too close to water without being in it and on the water T, allowing the dog to come back to the center of the pond at an angle on the return, he felt that might cause issues when we got into the swim-by and her not carrying a line out the ends. I don’t know if it will or not and but can’t wait to see! My intention is to do swim-by from the opposite side so it will be a different look and feel, everything will opposite form the water T, so we will see.

So back to the balance thing. Running Diesel in a Derby last year in La, on the 2nd series which was a water series. On the go bird, he hit every piece of water and every piece of cover in the water in route to the bird, same on the long memory bird. That got me to thinking. A year later, running quals, noticed the same thing, he was going out of his way to hit every perceived target in route to the bird. Now that we are gearing up to run Am's this spring, I’m worried about this extreme effort to hit everything in route to a mark! Everybody in Scott’s camp said this is nothing to worry about that at this stage in his carrier the timing is perfect for him to start to “relax” which comes with maturity and AA training. Would be far worse and a sign of lack of effort or poor training if he wasn’t doing these things.

So why not balance the dog from the beginning with land and water? Is that truly possible? Why not? I know the books say you do it A,B,C,D….

[Terry Brousseau]

Charles, I like what you said about BALANCE!!! So important for the mind of the dog. Check your PM

[Jay Dufour]

I think the times that the scales are tipped on the watery side will reap more placements than balanced, or tipped toward land.

[goosebruce]

Charles i think your thoughts are well placed... balance is going to produce a dog that 'relaxed' and slicker earlier than a dog doing it thru trained (or fear of correction) responces. However, since a dogs natrual tendency is to not do those things, theres gotta be some push to the side that saus doing those things is as important as the bird.... jays right, i think if a dog is going to be off center, they got to be off center watery (or covery) because that always smooths back to natrual.... not the other way around. The praticiality of the statement about becoming relaxed is very real, that relaxation comes from the sucess of making those desescions and being sucessful, i.e. in not being stopped and the line corrected, and of course in getting the bird. travis

[Mike Perry]

To be the devils advocate and for discussion: If your dog is willing to hit the water, will take small slices on the way to an in and out mark, and handles well in the water, why would you do swim by?
Could water T just take the place of swim by?
If the dog needs to be de cheated on the return, what about mild collar pressure on the corners to create hot spots and teach the dog to stay wet and honest on the way back?
If you have one that is naturally honest, why go thru the stress of swim by?
Some absolutely need it, no doubt, but maybe not all of them.
Just for discussion.
M
P

[B3]

I think balance toward watery early on but relax as they get older. I think its too complicated for the dog to get if your not consistently watery early on. As they get more advanced then they can understand that the point is going straight and fighting factors rather than just swimming to the end of a pond no matter what.

I don't like making hot spots because the dog might develop habits like not exiting or swimming tight by a point if its needed. I've seen blinds where the dog needs to make a long land run down a shoreline before or after swimming. They may never be able to do that with a hot shoreline in their memory.

[goosebruce]

Being one who doesnt do a formal swim by, I won't make the arguement for it being a nessessity... but hot spots are contrary to everything i want to teach my dog. Im correcting him for being someplace... im making a scary spot... he hasn't disobeyed, he simply did what was natrual. Im burning him without him knowing where he SHOULD be... he didnt make a desescion, he just did what was natrual. Im not saying cutting a cornor and a little tweak doesnt have its place, but as used as a true effort to decheat, its unfair to the dog and against what Im trying to teach. Dogs dont make great descions when they are scared or worried... they only make great descions when they are confident. travis

[Jay Dufour]

" Honest Dogs" are notorious for learning dishonesty on the last bird on Sunday afternoon.

[goosebruce]

if you have a dog that naturally sits or holds, why make him? Because anytime a pooch does 'naturally' that doesnt suit a pooch, is gonna fail when you need it most. Dogs are land animals. Sometimes hi desire dogs SEEM naturally honest, in fact those are often much harder to decheat because they dont give you as many chances to work on it, and usually will go straight in a black and white situation. travis

[CF]

the word relax...
is this referring to the dog naturally relaxing as he gets older and more experienced...

...or...

is it the "relaxing" of the training to allow the dog a little freedom (poor choice in words) to straighten those lines from point a to point b on his own...

[Jay Dufour]

Torchy Flynn asked Rex Carr " why do I have to correct for the dog doing it right ?" Rex: " Because I know dogs better than to not to" Ft Collins seminar 1972

[Mike Perry]

Being one who doesnt do a formal swim by, I won't make the arguement for it being a nessessity... but hot spots are contrary to everything i want to teach my dog. Im correcting him for being someplace... im making a scary spot... he hasn't disobeyed, he simply did what was natrual. Im burning him without him knowing where he SHOULD be... he didnt make a desescion, he just did what was natrual. Im not saying cutting a cornor and a little tweak doesnt have its place, but as used as a true effort to decheat, its unfair to the dog and against what Im trying to teach. Dogs dont make great descions when they are scared or worried... they only make great descions when they are confident. travis

I don't do a formal swim by either but I do formally de cheat. We all like dogs that are naturally "watery" but sooner or later they will figure out, it is easier on land and hence the tendency to cheat.
We ask them to do a lot of stuff that is unnatural like taking the corner of a pond or slough on the way to a mark and staying in the water on a down the shore blind when it is more efficient and quicker and more natural to take the land. This is a big difference between the Brits and the non Brits, but is the game we play and how it is judged.
I am with Jay on this one. You better prepare and train for it or it will bite you in the butt when you really need it.
MP

[cdwyer]

With all this being said, why would it be bad to blend and balence water and land (correctly) from the beginning rather than in steps. I realize its easier to teach and correct on land, you get that stuff behind you so that the transition into water is smoother and does not risk water sessions going "sour" and developing a bad water attitude.

But why not break the water force, water T, swimby into componets at the same time your doing your land work. Once you get to the point of swim by, your already about done, you are just polishing it, the dog is comfortable and has developed good water habits & attitude.

It makes so much more sense to build a dog with good behavior from the beginning, that turns into good habits. A habit becomes a habit and if the dog is bad, it's probably a lack of effort which a correction for is black & white. The other reason would be lack of experience. If you do your job as a trainer, you will see when the dog is over his head. Lack of effort is easy to see and distinguish from lack of experience.

[Mike Perry]

Since the weather sucks, and business is slow I have not much else to do other than to "internet train".

Your point Charles is a good one. Here is how I have done my last few dogs. After mini T and when they are proficient in the yard, I have been going to a training pond and throwing a pile of bumpers in the water about 15 yards out. Put the dog on SIT about 10 yards from the bank and doing right and left backs into the water. I think this helps in a couple ways.
First, reenforces the directional backs with the water as a new concept.
Second, gives me opportunities to cast off of land and into water.
When we are good on this, I put them on a long narrow point that is only about 6 feet wide with all 3 piles in the water. We do T work off of the point. Again, gives me opportunity to introduce the water as a factor, and also trains to cast off of a point. The point is long enough so that the shortest way back to me is in the water. Starting to plant water return and decheating.
All this is usually when they are 7-9 months old and still absorbing training like a sponge. Everything simple, short and fun.
Basically it is T work, mini baseball, whatever but with water.
When we are good here, we then go to the square pond for stop and go and casting drills while swimming. Also where we work on decheating and staying in the water and down the shore stuff.
Just my version of "water T" modified swim by or what ever you want to call it.
MP

[SkippyJ]

Best post that's been on here in awhile!!!