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What are your thoughts about it, pro or con? Before answering, please preface your response with what you believe predestination to be or what you believe Calvinism to be about. I think this could be an interesting thread. Thanks

This ought to be fun.

Calvinism is usually summarized by the acronym TULIP with T = Total depravity, U = Unconditional election, L = Limited atonement, I = Irresistible grace, and P = Perseverance of the saints. Fleshing out those five points would take more time than I have at the moment, but I'm sure we'll get there if this thread survives for long.

Predestination according to Webster is the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation. Though, admittedly, Webster isn't concerned with theology, it is interesting that he only mentions salvation, when it seems to me that the word "predestination" could be applied to any and all events that God had decided to do or bring about before they were done or brought about. But most people only associate it with salvation, so I'll stick with that theme and say that I think most people think of predestination as God choosing people for salvation before they choose him. That's a good way of looking at it, I think, but I would push it even further back to say that God chose his people for salvation before the creation of the world.

As for pros and cons, I'd say the biggest pro is that it's what the Bible teaches (both Calvinism and predestination). The biggest "con" (which I say semi-sarcastically) is that it attacks my pride.

And with that being said, let it begin.

Ordek Avci wrote:This ought to be fun.



As for pros and cons, I'd say the biggest pro is that it's what the Bible teaches (both Calvinism and predestination). The biggest "con" (which I say semi-sarcastically) is that it attacks my pride.

And with that being said, let it begin.

But doesn't Calvinism teach "once saved always saved" or as some call it "security of the believer"? That's not Bible,so how can the Bible teach Calvinism?

hencutter wrote:But doesn't Calvinism teach "once saved always saved" or as some call it "security of the believer"? That's not Bible,so how can the Bible teach Calvinism?

Actually, I think it is a pretty clear teaching of the Bible, if you'll allow me to point out a handful of verses.

First of all, the Bible tells us that we must persevere in obedience and love for God to be saved.

Mark 13:13 - And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John 8:31 - So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples"

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

There are others, but I think you get the idea. The idea of the perseverance of the saints is not a license to sin. It is a promise of faithfulness. God commands us to be holy and to live according to his ways and then he turns around and says that those he has called (elected, chosen, predestined, whatever) will be kept until the end. It's not just a command, it's a promise.

Jeremiah 32:40 - I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

John 10:27-30 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 1:8,9 - [speaking of Jesus] who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13,14 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Phillipians 1:6 - And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Phillipians 2:12,13 - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 5:23,24 - Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

2 Timothy 4:18 - The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 13:20,21 - Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:3-5 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 5:8-10 - Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

Jude 24,25 - Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

And if you're still reading and beginning to wonder, "What about the people that have claimed to be Christians and yet lived however they wanted?" It doesn't get any simpler than this...

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

So, in summary, in order to be saved, we must remain in the faith, obedient and loving, until the end and God has promised that those whom he has called will be kept in the faith by His own power.

dont know about Calvinism but i know what i believe about predestination.

Predestination is a little hard fathom. God in his infinate knowledge of ALL things, past, present and future, knew in eternity past who would accept His son Jesus as payment for their sin so that they would be saved from eternal punishment. however it is still man's choice as to who he would serve. There is no "chosen few" as some people like to say and that they have or had no choice. at some point man reaches God consciousness and it is at that point that man has the choice to be saved or not. this is why i believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven. these children and babies never

Why does it have to be one way or the other? God is God...he can do anything that he wishes. If he wants to 'choose' some (predestined for salvation) and/or let some men have a free will to choose for himself, can God not allow both to exist. Yes he can, He is God.

Thoughts?

dukmisr2005 wrote:dont know about Calvinism but i know what i believe about predestination.

Predestination is a little hard fathom. God in his infinate knowledge of ALL things, past, present and future, knew in eternity past who would accept His son Jesus as payment for their sin so that they would be saved from eternal punishment. however it is still man's choice as to who he would serve. There is no "chosen few" as some people like to say and that they have or had no choice. at some point man reaches God consciousness and it is at that point that man has the choice to be saved or not. this is why i believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven. these children and babies never

That is an interesting point of view and one that I used to believe wholeheartedly. However, something that struck me (not saying I am right, just what I believe after many years of study and soul searching) is that if it is ultimately up to me to choose God then Christ did not make a perfect sacrifice. It would still be up to me to "save" myself by my conscious decision. I believe that Christ's sacrifice was perfect. Also, if I choose God, then God would have to learn of my decision. As an all-knowing being, God cannot learn, therefore he must already know, which would in turn lead to the fact that he set it in motion (not by merit, but by grace). Finally, if Christ died for everyone (like many interpret John 3:16) then no one would go to hell. The bible is clear that there will be people in hell. They are in hell because of their sin, meaning that their sin was not bought and paid for as they are being punished eternally for it. In essence, if Christ died for everyone's sin and then some (or many) of those individuals went to hell, their sin would be paid for once and then would be paid for again. This does not make sense.

The part that always gets me on this debate is that if God knows everything and every decision we are going to make in the course of our lives then he knows at the time of our birth wether or not we will return to his Kingdom when our time on Earth is over. To me that would point to Pre-destination...


If we truly have "free will" then God presents us with choices that we must make during our lives. If we choose his way then we "earn our way" into Heaven and that would point against Pre-destination.

skywalker wrote:Why does it have to be one way or the other? God is God...he can do anything that he wishes. If he wants to 'choose' some (predestined for salvation) and/or let some men have a free will to choose for himself, can God not allow both to exist. Yes he can, He is God.

Thoughts?

You may be on to something. However, God is bound by His word. The Bible is very clear about predestination, in my opinion. Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 are good examples of plain language text on the subject. This word seems pretty exclusive one way. But I do concede that God is God and we certainly will not have a complete understanding of His ways until we leave this earth.

cwink wrote:The part that always gets me on this debate is that if God knows everything and every decision we are going to make in the course of our lives then he knows at the time of our birth wether or not we will return to his Kingdom when our time on Earth is over. To me that would point to Pre-destination...


If we truly have "free will" then God presents us with choices that we must make during our lives. If we choose his way then we "earn our way" into Heaven and that would point against Pre-destination.

I think the best way to approach "free will" is to look at Adam & Eve. They obviously possessed free will. That free will and decision based upon free will brought sin into the world. We are sinners by our nature as a result and thus bound by sin until converted. So, in order to view free will decisions you must concede that you are truly free, or neutral, to make a decision one way or the other. If you are bound by sin, you will be prone to choose the sinful way over the Godly way. For Calvinist, this is were Total Depravity comes in. It essentially means that apart from God, we cannot choose something that is not in some way related to sin. This is not to say that God does not use these choices for His glory, only that our decisions are tainted. So there is free will, but until a person accepts Christ, that will is not decision neutral, but tainted by sin.

Deltamud,
Yes, I have looked at those scriptures and agree that one can see 'predestined' in them, however, if you look at John 3:16, states that 'whosoever', it does not say 'who God elected', therefore, I can see both interpretations being somewhat scriptural. I do realize how I see it is not popular and I have been told many atime that it can't be both ways. However, if scripture states it, I am not going to limit what God can/can't do, as I believe some do.

Isaiah 55:8-9 reminds me that I cannot and will not completely understand all there is to what God does.

Thoughts?

I think that John 3:16 is not a limitation of predestination. Example, if I invited everyone from this board to my house tonight for a beer, I would put a thread that says whosoever shows up at my house tonight will get free beer. I know only about 5 guys on this board know where my house is located and virtually knowone knows my real name other than those folks. Therefore, I (even not having complete knowledge of all facts as a human) can almost predestine who will be at my house. Now, you know that God can do better than me. The predestined are the whosoever that believe.

Yes, but that also can be interpreted 'free will'........agree? Those that may not know where you live, can take it upon themselves to ask someone else where you live and can they show them the way to your house. That person then can be lead to your house by following directions or a map (scripture) to learn how to get to your house? Correct?

1Corinthians 10:5-12
10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

skywalker wrote:Yes, but that also can be interpreted 'free will'........agree? Those that may not know where you live, can take it upon themselves to ask someone else where you live and can they show them the way to your house. That person then can be lead to your house by following directions or a map (scripture) to learn how to get to your house? Correct?

As I stated, that I am a sinful human, God knows all and does not have the contingencies you speak of.

Answer thiese questions for me:

Can God learn?

Was Christ's sacrifice a perfect sacrifice or does he need our help?