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I have heard that you need to aggressive to blind. My definition of that is you never let the dog get off line even if you have ping pong him back to the bird. I have heard that you have some latitude of about 10 to 15 feet mean that if your dog is progressing to the blind you let him run. When he gets close to the bird stop him then handle him to the bird. Just wanting to know so when I start training for finished test how strict do I need to be.

Three parts to every blind retrieve.

1. Initial line
2. Suction from the line
3. Finish

Judges will mark PIL i.e. poor initial line

Suction causes a dog to get off line. When a dog refuses a cast, it will be traveling a path that will take it further from the bird.

Judges want to see you put your dog on the stick. Dogs that wander into it are listed as SOB, stumbled on bird. Fifteen yards downwind and finding the brid are not normally given a pass.

Judges do count cast refusals against total whistles. They will use 50% as a guideline for poor control but not as a dividing line between passing and failing work.

Keeping your dog tight to the line is a good idea. there is no OK distance on either side, but, rather whether the dog is continuing to progress to the line. Casts should improve a dog's position to the blind. Scalloping back is a cast refusal.

chance wrote:Judges do count cast refusals against total whistles. .

have always been told, by several experienced pros, that the number of whistles you use does not matter as long as the dog is advancing and he isn't refusing your whistle. the above statement implies total whistles matter.

I think what Chance was saying is they count the whistles, and count the cast refusals, and it better not be 50% of your casts refused... Total whistles don't matter as long as they take your cast every time.

Thanks guys if the dog does wind the bird should you stop her then tell her to pick it up or let them get it I am talking less than 10 feet. Also how much will popping hurt you. My female takes the line really well but if I start casting alot then she starts popping the next day at around 75 to 80 yards.

rebmd wrote:

chance wrote:Judges do count cast refusals against total whistles. .

have always been told, by several experienced pros, that the number of whistles you use does not matter as long as the dog is advancing and he isn't refusing your whistle. the above statement implies total whistles matter.

DUDE, get your finger out of that dude's booty and read negro, READ

what the hell are you doing anyhow....................he's got a broke LEG

gator

gator wrote:

rebmd wrote:

chance wrote:Judges do count cast refusals against total whistles. .

have always been told, by several experienced pros, that the number of whistles you use does not matter as long as the dog is advancing and he isn't refusing your whistle. the above statement implies total whistles matter.

DUDE, get your finger out of that dude's booty and read negro, READ

what the hell are you doing anyhow....................he's got a broke LEG

gator

i'll come by monday and let you enlighten me............that's a scary thought. tweedle dee teaching tweedle dum

see you monday, honkey

Total number of whistles is of no concern to judges. The thing that matters is the dog's response to the cast. Does he improve his line to the blind. Cast refusals against total whistles is a percentage of cast refusals against total number of whistles.Over 50% will pretty much turn you into a piece of toast. Even more weighty is cast refusals in a row. This means that the dog is really giving to the suction and not improving his line to the blind.
Wade, when a dog pops, it is counted as a cast refusal. The dog has refused to carry its line. If the dog also refuses the cast, he now has racked up two cast refusals in a row. Blood has begun to ooze.

glenn, i talked to rebmd on your behalf and told him you knew what the hell you were talking about and to shut up......he's a doc (forgive him) and he's on a rotation this month called "rectum's and anus', a beginners guide to proctology", so his mind gets a bit clouded.

anyhow, even though he is a doctor (bless his soul), he made a good point......he wanted folks to read NUMBER of whistles don't mean squat. too many folks watch SRS one day, and train the next (my opinion alone here).

ain't that what you said booty boy?

he'll be along shortly............i just heard em call a "code brown" overhead

gator

Thank you, Justin for protecting my dignity. Whether I know what I am talking about is always debatable.
rebmd, the number of whistles blown has absolutely no bearing on whether a dog passes or not. If he takes or refuses the handler's direction does. How many times can the dog refuse? That is a matter for the judge. How many times does the judge allow the dog to rfuse b/4 the paper is folded? Again, up to the judge.

Wade used the term, aggresive, when running the blind. I prefer attack the line to the blind. Give me a true initial line, stay online to the blind and finish it with your dog on the stick. 50 whistles with 50 cast taken, you have successfully ran the blind. Three whistles with two cast refusals, you will probably get a "really sorry, just not today" response.

Thanks Glenn you know I am new to this just wanted point into the right direction. I have a older dog that has been a meat dog and a good one but if I use a alot of whistles in training then she starts to pop alot. Gator I'm glad you don't know what I do for a living.

bustercat64 wrote:Gator I'm glad you don't know what I do for a living.

man i kid b/c i care , that and i CAN'T WAIT for my bud to read this stuff. he'll probably have some cool excuse like "i was on call and didn't have time to read this last night"...................i've heard it a thousand times.

heck, i sling a lot of chemo (dropped a lil bit in rebmd's drink the other day, shhhhh) and count pills for a living............one for you, two for me...............2 for you, 4 four me............and D.......what was the question?

gator

Chance,
I don't run HRC, so I am not familiar with their philosophy, but what is "scalloping" back? I train my dogs for right and left "J" backs. If my dog starts to get off line I can get him back on line with a R or L back that initially does not go straight back, but rather rolls R or L depending on the angle of the arm and if I step left or right; or not, or step straight forward. It kinda like a combined over/back. Is this what you mean by "scalloping" back? It is penalized on a blind retrieve?

I think a scallop is were you give an angle back (what your calling J back?) and the dog takes the cast for a few feet, then returns to the same direction he was going before the cast (off line).

Is this what you mean by "scalloping" back? It is penalized on a blind retrieve?

I think its judged as a cast refusal. You sent a dog on a straight line to the blind. Dog veers to the right off line. You stop the dog, give a left angle back to get the dog back online. Dog takes the cast for a few feet, then 'scallops' back toward the right offline. Stop the dog, left angle back, dog takes cast for a few feet, then 'scallops' again. Next thing you know your in a position to have to give a 'left over' to get the dog back online. Not a good thing to have a dog so out of shape you have to give an over.

The cast given by the handler is immaterial. What the dog does, tells whether it is taking the cast or not. Turning the right direction but not carrying the cast, giving right back to the suction, is called scalloping. Dogs just do it. Whether it is going to be called a cast refusal or not depends on how far the dog carries the cast before giving back into the suction.
There is always a line to the blind. Traveling at angles to that line only get you in trouble. Parallel ain't bad, if you are not too far off. A cast should always put your dog back to that line, going away from the line to the blind is the wrong direction.
Remember, blinds are judged by the dog's progress to the blind. Giving to suction is OK. Not allowing the handler to get them out of, is not OK.
I want to emphasize one other important issue with judges. DO NOT, I shall repeat, DO NOT take a false initial line to the blind to avoid the obvious suction. You will be penalized very severely for it. Up to, and possibly including, failing the blind.