steel shot? why?

[sunnylab]

why do the powers that be make everyone use steel shot? it is definitely not as effective as lead shot. my father went hunting with me this past weekend. he hasn't been duck hunting in over 10 years but i talked him into it. he was absolutely disgusted with the performance of the steel shot i gave him. he told me how much more effective lead shot was on ducks. he hunted with lead when it was legal. i was just wondering what everyone's take on this subject is?

[hillhunter]

i think it is udebatable that steel is less effective than lead, everyone knows that. what we need to do is find a less expensive and more effective alternative nontoxic shot, that way it is not toxic to birds, but also doesn't wound them. I think we lose too many ducks by wounding them with ineffective shot, but until the average hunter can buy this heavier shot most will still use steel.

[goosebruce]

Nothing wrong with todays steel. Cripples happened during lead days too. I grew up shooting lead. Early steel, sucked. It was nothing like todays steel. The majoirty of cripples are from the shooter, not the load. No magic nontox will fix that. And the majority of lost cripples would be recovered if folks weren't simply lazy, and gave it a real effort. Again, nothing in a box will fix that.

A hunter with a trained dog and steel will loose far less ducks than a hunter with lead and no pooch. To the point that dogless hunters are much more of a lost cripple factor than todays excellent nontoxic loads. Would love to see limits reflect that, but that will never happen.

Lead is toxic. We all know that. As much as I like lead, personally i think it should be illegal in ALL shotgun shells, unless they are shot on a range WITH a lead reclaimation program in effect. The very ideal of every pull of the trigger putting hundreds of toxic pellets in the environment for the next couple hundred years is sicking.

Of course, i think it ought to be against the law to sell oil to people who don't bring used oil in for recylcing too. No telling how much oil is poured into our ground water ever year by do it yourselfers. travis

[the doctor]

my father who has since gone on to that big duck blind in the sky (no cripples there!) had a far fetched theory about why steel shot was mandated thought id share it here

steel shot was introduced before it was mandatory. it was his belief that the ammo manufacturers felt hunters, being environmentally aware and natural conservationists, would gladly use shells that were ecologically sound although they cost slightly more. Makes sense. when it was discovered that steel shot was far less effective than lead, the manufacturers were stuck with warehouses of unsold steel shot and new line equipment to produce it

this is where it gets good

at this point the ammo manufacturers did what any other faltering american company would do and turned to the government it was my fathers belief that the ammo/gun manufacturers lobbied the legislature to mandate the use of steel shot for waterfowling to unload their mistake not only were they successful they amnaged to corner the market on waterfowling loads in the us and seemingly gouge us hunters
i used to think this story was somewhat far fetched myself until recent events have revealed exactly what kind of power and impact corporate america has on our society

Competition has entered today and driven the price down somewhat but we still pay alot for far less effective shells

my argument was that ducks having ingested lead shot would pass it before it does any harm I can understand shot that has lodged in their skin and poisons them biologists have told me that they can also be poisoned by ingesting it and they probably know more than me

i have grown up using steel shot and it can be just as effective as lead concentrate on getting the ducks in closer and becoming a better wing shooter and it wont matter what shells you use

my two cents worth
the doctor

[goosebruce]

Huh? Man, I'm guessing you ain't a bird doctor... You wrote "my argument was that ducks having ingested lead shot would pass it before it does any harm ..." Dude, birds have GIZZARDS... where they pick up rough stuff to grind their food. Ducks feed off the bottom if you haven't noticed, and they pick up lead pellets for grit, and they grind every bit of their food with a toxic rock.

Tell ya whut... I'll dig up a few lead loads, open them up, and let you eat 30 pellets (figure you weigh 50X as much as a duck, so you really aren't getting a full dose) and then sit down to Christmas dinner. Since you'll pass those pellet's, and a duck won't, you ought to come through with flying colors. We'll do it every holiday dinner for a year, and see how you fair. You up for it?

Even if your theory was remotely true, should we be putting toxic stuff where animals can eat it because it will pass before they die a slow lingering death?

Steel shot was mandentory nationwide in 1990, and used in problem areas before then. 12 years later, those spent lead pellets still kill ducks. Nowhere near the numbers, cause they're are nowhere near the pellets left. But they still show up every year, all over the country, in duck gizzards. Guess the fed's are in on the coruption too eh?

You silly chuckleheads get on here and talk about what hunting means to you in all these feel good sunrise crap and you think posioning nature is ok if it means your fatass doesn't have to chase a cripple? Ain't no secret lead is posion, that's why they took it out of paint and everything else they used to use it in (that's graphite in your pencil too, btw). All for the sake of saving a few dollars you'll spray toxic pellets into the ground and water that will be there decades later?

Like I said. I'd love to see them totally outlaw lead pellets in everything. Dove loads, duck loads, split shot, you name it. If it's small enough for an animal to eat it, or a person to lose it, it shouldn't be made of lead.

Hey doc, I bet dat asbestous rumor was all bout the benjamins too. travis

[Greenhead22]

Come on trav.............you actually want us to start having to shoot doves, rabbits, and squirrels with steel shot. It's bad enough with ducks, not including these. Just for the hell of it I've shot at doves, rabbits, and squirrels with steel shot and they just laughed at me and just kept going. I've tried to shoot squirrels out of the top of trees with 3.5's, and they laughed............and I did too....

[mottlet]

goose, i think that's the best reply i've seen on this site yet.

mottlet

[Wildfowler]

Do ya'll remeber what was said about lead in this post?

http://www.ducksouth.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... ght=#25879

Lead has a top shelf decomposition life of only 6 years?

I'm sure I don't really know what a "top shelf decomposition life" means, but it doesn't sound that bad. Is this statement even remotely true? I don't really know how to verify this.

I agree 100% that lead shot should not be used for waterfowl. But I don't think that it should be banned from other forms of hunting.

Just my opinion.

[the doctor]

goose

didnt mean to strike a nerve i just thought it was an amusing explanation perhaps even humourous to some

td

[mossyisland]

I know for a fact one of the main reasons lead was banned was because they were finding bald eagles dead on Realfoot Lake. Injured or dead birds were being eaten by these bald eagles and injesting the lead and killing them. This is one of the main reasons

[sportsman450]

While todays steel is much better than the first steel shells were,it cannot compare to the effectiveness of lead.Nothing the government or any biologist says,will ever convince me that we don't lose more ducks to crippling than we have to lead poisioning!


I personally believe there are three great motivating factors in the world today:money,sex,and God.I doubt that sex or God had too much to do with the switch to steel shot.

[the doctor]

450

we think alike i am sad to say that in the world we live in is motivated by only two

"i like eatin' lead shot, it don't bother me none" reverse psychology from Joe Dirt (joke)

td

[goosebruce]

GH22, it doesn't matter whut you shoot... someone is gonna laugh.

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Lead is toxic. It's the very defintion of toxic. And spraying it all over hell's creation isn't doing anything for the great outdoors. You guys have threads about picking up your hulls and litter, and you never think about the toxic remains of your hunt?

I have no earthly ideal about shelf life decompstion. I ain't a scientist. I do know lead kills $#!+. Either shot with it or ingested. And as of last year, they where still picking lead pellets outta places like Lake Cathoula in LA. I don't know about any of you, but anything I leave in the great outdoors for 12 years ain't gonna be toxic.

No, it doesn't 'go away' in six years. It's an element. It never goes away. No matter does. As I said before, Im not a scientist, but I did have 8th grade sceiene. And anything that is an element doesn't go away.

Mossyisland... the eagles where the kicker. But it wasn't just reelfoot brother... It was the entire country. This world is bigger than somewhere you can drive too. Eagles where decimated by ddt and all dat stuff long before my time, and probably yours. And the dead eagles from the lead posioned ducks did push it over the top. Plus side, I see eagles every year now. I didn't as a kid in the 80's. Is that worth 3 bucks a box extra for shells... hell yes.

Sportsman... well, you my friend are the very most short sighted in this. What causes more cripples than steel? Hunters my freind. Want government to get involved in that? Your arguement seems to make sense on the most very basic level, but it doesn't hold water. Does steel cause more cripples than lead? Probably. But then again, we did have cripples back then too. The studies done by the gov. don't show a signifcant difference, and those numbers with lead or steel either one are totally sickening. I've made the same arguement you are currently making, until i thought it out. Steel kills or cripples, depending on the shot taken and the shooter, same as lead. Maybe more lucky bb ducks died with lead than steel, but the fact remains with steel, the killing stops then. If you honestly belive that lead saves ducks, then you should also argue that if we all shot single shots we'd cripple less (most ducks are killed clean on first unhurried shot, most cripples from followup shots). You could aruge for mandentory dog use. You could argue that the average hunter must pass a adequency exam, for calling, decoy setting, and shooting, to make sure he can get ducks within range and do his job. All of these far fetched things would make more sense than saying shooting posion into our water, skies, and fields saves ducks.

You've already told us the 450 is your weight. 30 lead pellets ought to be a cakewalk for you brother.

So it's a great conspricy by the ammo companies to sell steel shot, right? It's all about the money. Well, if thats the case, then why spend all this money developing better loads? Bismuth, tungstin, and heavishot? All very expensive to make, and develop, and get approval for? Why not ride the wave, after they went into co-hoots with the government to make us shoot steel? And why have prices come down? Think about it, all the prices that have went UP in duck hunting since 1988 when I had to start shooting steel. Only things that have gotten cheaper are bullets and decoys. Yeah, we paid $4 for lead loads in those days, but $8 -$10 a box for steel loads now, is comparision sake odds on cheaper now than then. Ammo is the least expensvie part of duck hunting, and if the price of steel is bothering any of you, then the greed you speak of is your own. What you are suggesting makes no sense. If the ammo compaines all got together, and pushed this, then why didn't they simply raise their prices on lead shells? Your talking about compaines that got together with the us freggin ass government, to make us change a staple product (that they where already providing) to something more expensive, 15 years ago, and no one has surfaced to tell their story on dateline nbc... No study has rebuked lead toxicity since then has it? No one has offered to eat a plate of my lead pellets have they? Because its common freggin knowledge, lead kills.

I'm not picking on any of you. I simply want you to think about what you are saying. There is no way, as a steward of the great outdoors, you can justify it being legal to spray a toxic substance that will remain for years after you are gone. Open your minds past what you can see and think for a moment. Your own expereinces are not everything in this great big world. Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean its not their.

Not a single person on this forum would argue to justify someone littering while hunting. Someone leaving paper, plastic, or aluminum, where you can see it. Nothing hazardous mind you, just something that is an eyesore. Nobody on here would stand up for that, would they? How can you in the same frame of thought, think that using something toxic vrs nontoxic in the same places is ok? There isn't a documented case of a duck dying from ingesting an aluminum can, an empty dip can, or a cardboard box is there? No fish kills, or birth defects from an empty chicken box thrown on the ground. Many of you claimed a short time ago you picked up your hulls on public land, for selfish and unselfish reasons. Yet you expect me to belive you'd prefer to shoot something toxic, and think its a government conspricy in bed with the ammo compaines (we all know how the federal government loves the gun/ammo compaines anyhow right!) why we can't? And that it would SAVE ducks?

Oh, and another little tidbit about economy and the law of supply and demand. Dove loads are dirt cheap because they are made by the millions. The new $#!+ steel loads made by the same numbers would be almost the same price. I've shot a ton of doves, snipe, and woodcock with 20 gauge steel 7's (the shells we train with at the duck field to remain legal & moral) so I can't belive we can bring down really really tough animals like doves and squirrels with the same type of shot I've killed 15 pound geese with. I don't buy it guys, and if you think about it, you won't either.

Good thing Elvis isn't still alive to read all this $#!+... Oh wait, that was another big conspricy wasn't it! I heard he's loading steel sheels in Walla Walla Washington in some big secret government shotgun shell factory and jerking off bladeagles on his lunch break! bwhahahahaha. travis

[goosebruce]

Hey TD... Life's a garden, dig it.

Man, my 5 year old loves dat flick. He's getting it for Christmas, very much to my wifes chagrin. He wanted to be Joe Dirt for Halloween, but the wife wouldnt go for it. He called her mommy dirt for a while.. bwhahaha.

I can lead shot paraphrase too!
This where you want to be when Jesus comes back? Posioning the water?

Say it, don't spray it.

And finally, think about this stuff, or I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron. travis

[Greenhead22]

Ha ha........very funny goosie......