Nice! From Evan Graham's "Secret's of the Pros"

[Troy Williams]

Quote:

"Train your dog to be under whelmed by the tests you are planning to expose him to."

Troy

[Copiah Creek]

My dog is under whelmed at the test , it ME that gets over whelmed !

The finished test at southern flight were some of the toughest i have seen in hrc ,,,,,,,,but they were great .

[Sipsey]

Copiah and anyone else, I was wondering what everyone thought about the finished test at southern flight and if it would rank as one of the harder finished tests they've seen? I picked up a finished pass at the test and I thought it was a hell of a good one! no easy in that test for sure. What you think goosebruce? since you've ran about every finished test know to the world! haha

[Copiah Creek]

I thought the test was great , one of the best i have seen , and Mikes place was beautiful . I did not agree with changing the water test after 1 flight of dogs had already run .

However i never agree with changing a test after the test dog runs and no one objects to what they see. I think every dog should run the same test period . But some dont agree with me , thats why they make chocolate and vanila i guess .

I did not agree with the judges either , My dad use to judge before he went to the big duck hole in the sky , and if a dog was not going to pass they were ask to be put on lead at the honor bucket , and they still do it now , but if the dog is allowed to honor and does not break and the judges say honor dog is excused , the way i see it the dog passed .

Now i know some have a different opinion but that is mine and im sticking to it . I saw several pass i would have failed , and i saw several fail i would have passed ,,,,,,,maybe thats why i aint a judge !

[goosebruce]

sat water test was changed for the sake of time. it was 230 when they got on the water. no way they would have finished the way the test was orginally designed. Itd be great to say time never facotrs in, but it does, and has too. Whats more fair, fixing a test for time, or running the late dogs into the dark? The change in the test was probably more of a finished test. The orginal test required a dog schooled in techincal water to be able to do clean. Im not saying thats wrong, but not everybody has acess to technical water. I know in oct at languille, Im going to be setting a water test up on chris akins farm, so I'll be tasked with not getting too technical as well, so I know its a challenge. Sat land test was designed to be balanced with the water test... they made changes on the land test to help keep dogs in, so they clearly werent trying to 'kill' dogs. I thought it was a good test either way.
As far ranking in difficulty... it was more difficult than old hatchie water tests, or east arkansas water tests. But it should have been, it was in a much more suitable location to test dogs. Ive already ran a much tougher water blind this fall in a finished test (central la), and the toguhest land blind Ive ever run in a finished test there too. Always remember, you give good judges a good peice of property to set up on, your gonna be impressed with what comes out. Those guys (and gal) cudda got NASTY on that water, and you'd seen 2 dogs instead of 6 pass in our flight.
I saw a land test at colorado river this june that passed 9 out of the flight. And 3/4s of the dogs there had MH or Grand expereince. My comment at that time about that test was if you threw it up here, you'd pass 3 or 4 dogs. I know what over the top is, and what we had this weekend wasn't.

My take on setting up test, if I set up enough test, I don't have to judge (i.e. nitpick). If I got enough test there, we all know what finished work is. I become merely a scorekeeper, and everyone knows the dog determined the pass, not me or my judge. At the end of the day, id sure like to know if my dog did the work or not, instead of wondering how many cast refusuals a judge would allow and if that made the cut.

All dogs dont have to run the same test, unless your picking a winner. All dogs in a different flight sure dont, cause the dogs in the same flight dont. That is why we have judges, to make judgement calls. travis

[T-Bone]

Quote:

"Train your dog to be under whelmed by the tests you are planning to expose him to."

Troy

Troy,
EG made the same statement at the seminar that Southern Flight put on at in Feb at Dywer's place and it was underlined in my notes.

[huntergirlhotty]

well yall opened this can of worms .......so here goes

At the end of the day, id sure like to know if my dog did the work or not

what about the HUGE discrepency between the two set of judges??

I mean a finished standard to one set of judges .......was not the finished standard to the other judges. And if there is a FINISHED standard, why isn' t that standard required to be met ......instead of an AKC or ?? or someother standard. I mean, I thought I was running a UKC test.

Although we can't change the judges decision or discuss a particular dog's performance persay - Let's DO !

Three dogs. Two passed according to finished UKC standards. No ribbons awarded either dog. ONe dog ran - close to absoutely perfect. Gave a right over cast where the dog took the cast improving his position to the blind for about 10 ft and then began to suck back instead of holding the cast to the right. Sit = cast right over again , dog picked up bird. JUdge stated he failed the dog for not holding ONE CAST. DOG NAILED THE WATER TEST and Hand no OTHER ISSUES. SO...... dog failed for not HOLDING one cast up a hill and ......sucking back toward cover.

Other dog nailed all the marks. No whistle or cast refusals at all. Dog a little excited on the water blind and took 3 whistles to get dog on right line toward blind .........then dog lined the blind. Dog took initial line in corn ...for blind but had to be handled out of corn. But again, no whisle refusals and No cast refusals.

Huge discrepency .......when dogs performed both days ......one day the judges complimented me on how great dog did.......next day ......dog failed test for same excellent performance

[Copiah Creek]

Goose i think i said i loved the test , BEST i have seen in hrc , the water change on sunday was not due to time . And im not taking sides with anyone or nit picking , I think the judges made some bad calls just as i made some bad cast.

I have ran some AKC test and i dont have a problem with them at all there fun too , but when im at a ukc test i dont want the judge asking me about akc.

If i give a (wrong) or (bad) cast to the blind but my dog does as i ask ,and does not go selfemployed and picks up the chicken im happy with him he did what i wanted , however wrong it was , fail the handler (me) but dont say he did not do the work .

But make no mistake ,,,,,,I loved the test and the grounds were great ,,,,,,the judges were not consistent thats all. OK im ready for my ripping.

[goosebruce]

I was speaking on the water test being changed on SATURDAY. It was very much simplified for the sake of time. Sundays was beefed up I assume, as I understand the water blind was changed and should be. I ran a dog on sundays waterblind as set up dog, that has been running water blinds for 10 days. And 3 whistled the blind. So the same flight that got an eaiser water test on sat, got a little harder one on sunday? Don't see the big deal about consistancy, seems thats a wash. travis

[Troy Williams]

What was said about AKC? Lemme guess! Play both sides of the line to the blind. Did I get it right?

[huntergirlhotty]

had to go to work, so let me finish my post

As far as the actual test .... I thought the test were fair. Good - with very GOOD concepts of Suction.

However, the HRC judges books states to judge dogs accordingly when they "recover from suction". Obviously test are set up to see if dogs can take initial lines, be aware of suction - forget the suction or either recover from suction, or see if the handler can maintain control of the dog in the presence of suction.

Blinds up steep angle hills with severe suction on the other side is a GREAT concept. But expecting or demanding that a dog line that blind is not an HRC Finished standard and not even a Grand standard. A dog who takes an initial line give, stays under control, takes the cast given, improves it position to the bird....... should be a pass. WHether the dog might need an extra cast to get up a steep hill.....or a left over to get away from suction - should not be a fail if the dog is under control and continues to improve its position to the bird.

It does not say a dog should run - line the blind or one whistle the blind in despite of suction. Nor I have ever known this to be the HRC standard.

Usually an "overall" dog performance is taken into account if the dog had a questionable or "bubble" performance. However, the judges that judges me did NOT take into account both dog's near perfect performance in all other areas as the other Blind they ran, Marking, Honoring, Steadiness, Control, General line manners, and all the ABSOLUTE NO CAST REFUSALS OR WHISLTE REFUSALS.

WHen Speaking to the judges - they failed my perfect dog for not holding a cast all the way to the blind but falling back toward suction after holding the cast for 10 -20 ft. There penciled cover sheets looked nothing like the dogs that I ran. And it seemed erroneous to me to discuss it any further with them if their only reason for failing one dog that ran perfect for not holding his cast for more than 10 - 20ft. There were places on the sheets marked WR whistle refusals when my dog's had NO whistle refusals. Whistle refusal is when the dog does not acknowledge the whistle at all. There was no explanation from the judges as to why their was a straight line from line to the blind if I had so many "problems" or whistle refusals. ON each judges sheet it was dog and a pretty much straight line to the blind. Believe me, if I had a whistle refusal - she would have been way off the line and into the next county cause she is fast as heck !!!

I Don't have a problem with different judges and some difference in perhaps standards to some extent it is going to happen. I do have a problem with the HUGE discrepency and that the Judges that I ran under were NOT judging under the guidelines that are standard at UKC finished level. To me, If I was going to be an AKC, UKC, fieldtrial judge - I would not judge other levels if I could not differentiate from the two. You can't choose to be a judge and then judge three total different games as the same Game.

I AGREE with the Sat test changing for the sake of time to complete the test. However, the Sunday water test = water blind was made MORE difficult with no real reason other than the judges wanted to make it harder. Which is basically an unfair practice. If four judges are going to swip swap a test with flight a and b .....the test should be agreed upon by all 4 judges and adhered to....and not made more difficult for one group or the other. Either it is finished test or it isn't.

I agree with Copiah on that the test should remain the same. This is becoming a problem due to the fact that the judges who are changing the test in the afternoon are either not taking into account what was done on the morning test which could totally change the test for the afternoon dogs. Example throwing a diversion bird one direction in the morning ......then in the afternoon throwing the diversion bird the other direction. Now your lining your dog to a blind between not one old fall ......but two areas where 40 birds have landed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT can completely change the test and from what I have seen Judges can't seem to figure out why dog behave the way they do, because they didn't consider that the diversion mark from the morning was thrown in line with the blind in the afternoon. It can increase ennormous suction and crazy dog behavior that handlers may not even be aware of why their dog acted so strange.

I did not even have a dog that "recovered" from suction. My dogs never got into the suction at all ....... I would have 1000 points if my dog passed when he Passed. I understand this game, I have been playing it a long time, however, it is very hard to explain to people why their dog did not pass when they saw their dogs performance - and their dog did perfect. It makes them not only understand, but made them not want to play the game and it left them a sour mouth regarding Southern Flight. ALthough I explained to them it is not the club. But I think the issue needs to be addressed ........ Their can't be that big of discrepency between the SAME test and the SAME JUDGES. SOmething was WRONG.

[cdwyer]

The judges were very specific regarding good initial lines both in the corn and in the water. I assumed it was something they were gonna watch clsoely and spent some extra time picking the line with the amount of area we had to work with in order to give the dog the best advantage to take and carry a good initial line. I noticed several handlers rush themselves by sending their dog before it was ready to be sent. This is the number one cause of bad initial lines, the dog has not had the opportunity to understand where he is expected to go. Most weekend tests you can get away with a bad line and correct with a quick whistle and cast to correct the line. These two tests were tough to recover from if you did get a bad line because of the factors. You had corn stubble on land and an angle entry into the water with tons of suction on both sides of the line. The judges even mentioned in the corn that there is only one line to the blind.

[GulfCoast]

Judges: If my dog does passing work, please pass her. If she does not do passing work, please fail her. Just treat her the same as the other dogs, and you did your job. Either result, I will buy you a beer when its over. I will let her down with inept training a lot more times than she will let me down by giving me the finger at a test.

[huntergirlhotty]

Both my dogs took a good initial line on both blinds.

One dog took initial line right to the edge of the corn - I stopped and over her out of the corn

Same dog took initial line to the water blind right past the winger - at the edge I sit her and gave her an over - just to assure she would bust off the edge and not try to swing right on the bank

SO ?????????? Their's no standard that says the dog has to line the blind. Take an initial line. I saw FOUR Barry Lyons dog POP at the line on finished ...... This was just a few weeks ago North LA test .........he sent them and they all popped right in front of him at the line. You can't resend a finished dog. HE just sit them ...backed away from them.....and then gave them a back. And he passed almost all these dogs. SO>>>>>.... AGain ...... there's a finished standard .....but there was some HUGE discrepencies from one set of judges and I am not sure what standard they were judging from, but it was not an HRC standard

[T-Bone]

I dont have the time right now to say fully what I want to say but will try in haste. And I hope it is not taken out of context for it is only a statement and my opinion only....

I dont think the internet is the place to be bashing a judge about his test or how he or she judged it or how he/she set it up. The judges volunteered their time to judge the hunt test and we/you agreed to run under their judgement. If you have a gripe then take it up with the judge after the test. If still not satisified go thru the proper channels and file a formal complaint. I dont think disussing on the interweb a judges comments made to you in private about a judges sheet and how he/she judged your dog is in the best interest of HRC/ UKC, hell the dog world in general. Discuss the asthetics(sp) of the test and how your dog reacted or didnt react but the leave the JUDGES out of the conversation.

This may fall on deaf ears and sorry if I make a few good folk mad but felt it needed to be said before this gets out of hand and goes any deeper than it already has.