Interview with Mike Lardy

[Drakeshead]

From the latest issue ofRetriever Journal

Training with Mike Lardy

Perspectives from Across the Pond

What I learned about training and Labs from competing and hunting in England.

An interview with Mike Lardy

You’ve had the opportunity to see Labs work in England a couple times over the last two years, both in competition and hunting. Tell us about your experiences and what you’ve learned.

First off all, I’ll be making generalizations based on the average of what I’ve seen. I know that there are individuals on both sides of the ocean who break stereotypes.

My first trip to the United Kingdom was as captain of the team that competed in the International Gundog Event, and we got to see Labs from all over the UK and from Europe as well. I was impressed with the quality of the dog work - they were attractive, they ran hard, they did nice work with good style. But I also learned that their tasks are considerably different from ours, and the primary difference between our competitions and theirs is the water work. They simply aren’t required to make multiple retrieves at any kind of distance or through demanding conditions on water.

The other occasion I got to go over for recently was to do some shooting, and I was able to witness a number of Labradors doing their picking-up job after a driven shoot. And, again, this is a different kind of hunting than what we do in North America, and although they do some rough shooting – which is flushing and shooting the way we do – a lot of the retriever work is picking up after a driven shoot.

The way we hunt and the way they shoot is so different, it’s not surprising that our retrievers are also a little different. For example, on a driven shoot, a line of guns might shoot 200 times on one drive, and there might be 40 or 50 birds down. If you have a Lab with super-high desire, they’re going to go nuts in that situation – it’s just too much.

Although many were on leads, their dogs were very calm, some of them even lying down – they were watching what was going on with interest, but I would describe them all as quite calm with guns going off and birds raining down, some hitting the ground 10 yards away from the dogs.

So how would a British Lab fit over here in the States for the typical hunter?

If I were going to be hunting in a situation where there were a ton of birds and constant action, like in some of the South Dakota hot spots, I would want a dog like the average British dog. But our upland dogs have to search for game in addition to just retrieving, and in many areas they may have to search a long time before they find a bird.

North American water fowling can be particularly demanding. I’m not sure the British Labs would have the guts for it. Oh sure, if I were just ducking hunting opening day and dropping a few birds in the decoys or hunting easy potholes in the prairie with a lot of birds falling all around, a quiet dog would be great. But if you’re going to be on the Snake River or a wild rice swamp or hunting all season long doing layout hunts for divers in Lake Michigan, I don’t think those dogs would cut the muster.

With regards to the British Labs being calm while birds are raining down and guns going off compared to the high-desire, “gung-ho-ness” of the American dog, does that, in turn, lead to the necessity of more training on things like steadiness in the American dog?

I think the American type of hunting dog requires more training, but it’s more basic than that, when contrasting American and British Labs. Yes, the way we hunt is different, but there are also differences in the way we train that contribute as well.

Our dogs are raised in what you could call a “ready, set, go” atmosphere – they’re in the crate in the back of the car by themselves, you let them out, you Lethem exercise for a minute, you put the collar on them, then you get in the holding blind or go to the line, and it’s go-go-go. And the dog gets to know the routine: I get out, I get birds. There’s this whole “ready, set, go” buildup.

Most of the time in England, I saw multiple dogs loose in the back of the vehicles. They get out all the time, not just when they’re going to be worked; and multiple dogs are worked at a time, so that when you bring out four or five dogs, only one of them is going to make the retrieve. They don’t quite have that “ready, set, go” attitude.

We noticed that when we were training our American dogs for the International Gundog Event, that their attitude started to change after we began to train differently. We began taking all the dogs out together, walking across the fields, and setting up various test as we went along. In the beginning, our dogs were super keyed-up, thinking that they were about to work; but as time went by, they became more and more passive about it, and their expectation was, Well, the next one probably isn’t for me. So they became much calmer about the whole thing.

I should also mention that their dogs are not exposed to birds at quite such an early age – few people even keep birds for training. They may even take a young dog to a shoot and not let them pick up any birds. My impression is that their dogs are very obedient and steady on dummies before they get much exposure to real birds. This could also contribute to a calmer work attitude.

So I think that some of the differences in the dogs are related to the whole way that we train and hunt, versus the way they train and hunt.

Did you notice that when your American dogs began to have that attitude – that the next one probably wasn’t going to be theirs – that it lead to a diminishing of their drive or skills?

They never lost interest; they were always observing and watching, but they had less of a hair trigger.

So someone is getting a new pup – what advice would you give them based on what you’ve learned?

When selecting a litter to pick a puppy from, it really boils down to what you intend to use your dog for, and I view it as sort of a consumer – driven selection: If you’re going to hunt pheasants where there are just unbelievable numbers of birds, you probably don’t want a Lab out of some hot field trial lines – a British type Lab might be better. Conversely, if you’re going to hunt waterfowl in a wild rice marsh or pheasants in Michigan or Wisconsin where you have to hunt hard for 45 minutes before you ever flush a bird, you probably do want a very good American field trial or hunting line. However, you’ve got to know the sire and dam and the nature of the dogs in the pedigree of any prospective litter. Individual differences are often much greater than these broad generalities of British versus American Labs.

One of the things I gained from going over there, both for competition and hunting, is that if I were training young dogs, I would try to change my routine to reduce that “ready, set, go” atmosphere, especially for hunting. For field trials, you have to have a dog that’s really keen and ready to go.

But if I were training for hunting, I would do more training in which the dog is going in the field and not retrieving. I would also do more work in which the dog has to walk at heel or at least respond to my commands while out on a walk away from a hunting environment; and I’d do more training where multiple dogs came up but only one got to do the mark. I’d get them out of the car for a long period of time before they went to the line to get a bird, just to try to reduce that go-go-go atmosphere.

I’d also put a bigger emphasis on heeling off-lead, without commands, so that the dog was more automatic and would naturally fall into the proper position. The European dogs we observed did a better job at that. Our dog’s heel, but we tell them to heel about every 15 seconds! Their dogs heel automatically, and I think if I were training young dogs again, I would conclude my yard work with teaching automatic heeling in a wide variety of environments.

[Duck Chaser]

found a copy before editting..


An interview with Mike Lardy



You’ve had the opportunity to see Labs work in England a couple times over the last two years, both in competition and hunting. Tell us about your experiences and what you’ve learned.

thats a sittin bunch of mofo's



So how would a British Lab fit over here in the States for the typical hunter?

if its cheese or a tamie hunt, fine. if not, well...



With regards to the British Labs being calm while birds are raining down and guns going off compared to the high-desire, “gung-ho-ness” of the American dog, does that, in turn, lead to the necessity of more training on things like steadiness in the American dog?

yup. but that 'gung-ho-ness' is what we train for.. when we trained for that stuff, our dogs lost interest too. plus, their dogs don't get birds till they're 3. and I've seen em take a young dog out to 'hunt' and not pick-up squat. so some aren't quite sure wtf a bird is.



Did you notice that when your American dogs began to have that attitude – that the next one probably wasn’t going to be theirs – that it lead to a diminishing of their drive or skills?

man, they roll w/ the flow. they could see that I was gonna make em do this.. they played along so we could hurry up and get back to work.



So someone is getting a new pup – what advice would you give them based on what you’ve learned?

if you hunt like that, get that. if you hunt ducks in america...... man, you aint listened to a dam word I said, have ya??

[skuna]

somebody is picking a fight......

LMAO though!

Nothing hurts worse than the truth.

[Drakeshead]

There interview is there in its entirety.

We have debated this topic before on here and I thought it was nice to have a professionals point of view so I posted it on here. You may or may not agree with Mr. Lardy, but it is his point of view.

One of the key points that I like about the interview is:

When selecting a litter to pick a puppy from, it really boils down to what you intend to use your dog for...

This point has been made by many and it arises again. It is this point that folks should think about prior to purchasing a dog.

[chip laughton]

Instead of starting this, go over on RTF and spend a couple of hours reading the discussion that has been going on for a since last week. There are multiple threads going. Honestly some of it is pretty good discussion, some is the same thing that has been argued for years.

[Duck Chaser]

chip, not sure where that is, but I don't need to.. I've been around both personally and really couldn't care less about such a discussion. a good dog is a good dog. I just needed to get my head out of work and bs a minute on a serious note, glad to see lardy mention and advise a little different approach with young dogs. that wham, bam, thank ya mam, day after day, can create a hair trigger for sure.

[skuna]

DC,
Be glad you didn't say something about Stewart or Wildrose.

I think that the article was interesting in the way that he never felt the need to put Brit dogs or training methods down in order to build American dogs or dog games up. But then he's not in the puppy business.

[chip laughton]

Duckchaser, I am on the same page as you. I like the fact that Lardy with his experience took an approach that there is a merit to what they do and how they do it.

[Drakeshead]

I too agree with the both of you and enjoyed the interview and his perspective. That is why I posted it here, not to start the whole Amer. vs Brit. Just that it was nice to have a pro's opinion and thoughts on their training methods.

I also do not feel that this interview has any reflection on Mike Stewert or Wildrose. As far as I know Lardy did not compete against Stewert while in the UK.

[DavidR]

Being a Brit dog owner when I read the article I did not find it overly critical either. I thought it was very interesting some of the perspectives that he had with regard to steadiness, obedience etc... I would be willing to bet we have all been in a blind with a dog that acted crazy all day long. If you haven't you have not hunted around enough dogs.

[B3]

Sometimes when its dull around here its good to start the UK vs US debate to pass the time. Usually a new member will show up and start it all over again every once in a while.

[Drakeshead]

B3,

Sent you a PM.

Guess maybe I should not have posted the interview up. It was not meant to insight any arguments, I just thought it was good to hear from someone that has been there/done that. We speak of it on here a lot, but many on here have never spoken to any of the U.K. trainers/breeders that play the U.K. game, but speak harshly about the U.K. game.

DavidR,

I will be up your way March 17 to watch Ole Miss/Vandy in baseball and to pickup my new pup.

[DavidR]

Drakeshead,

Don't think you will insite any arguements from me, I thought it was a good article and interesting to see that some of the things that some of us a Brit dog owners have seen for years and promoted were some of the points he hit on in the article. There are good and bad points to be considered of every litter of pups, whether they be UK dogs, or US bred dogs. I have monitored both this forum and RTF for several years now and don't post much. The bottom line is that you as a dog owner have to choose what you feel is right for your personal needs as a hunter/trainer/tester whatever your desire as a dog owner and enjoy your choice. What you put in is definetly what you get back out.

Where are you picking up your pup from? I guess I am what you call a regular out at Wildrose, I live about 7 miles from there have 2 Wildrose dogs and train out there all the time. Mike is a good friend and I hate to see people bash him. He is passionate about his dogs, and has always bent over backwards to help me out. Sure the UK training methods are different than the mainstream US training methods but I can honestly say I have seen many a fine gundog that I would love to own produced by the style of training promoted at Wildrose.

[goosebruce]

Wonder why all the brit fanciers only post when they think they need to circle the wagons? Probably too busy picking up birds for their dogs. bwhahahahahahaha. travis (who can teach a dog to sit without doing its JOB)

[B3]

Drakeshead,

Thanks for posting the article. I haven't gotten my RJ and was wanting to see what started all of the crap on RTF. There are some folks that just can't let the Wildrose issue go who maybe should woory more about their own business. I don't consider how Wildrose runs their business any of my business or anyone elses.

I was JK about the previous threads on brit dogs. At this point they are entertaining because they are all the same. Hers how it usually goes....

1. slanderous comments about brit dogs, Wildrose, the wildrose trial,etc..
2. brit dog owners counter with defense of WR and want to know what is the problem with brit dogs and/or WR
3. because Mike S says FF and collar have ruined US labs
4. Brit owners say where did he say that?
5. other angry US owners join in because they heard that Mike S said ugly things about US labs and they are insulted and want to kick his booty and not give any money to DU
6.Us owners offer as evidence like half a sentence of of WR's humongous website.
7.at this point the mods step in because they are worried about lawsuits...
8. angry folks now simmer down and say they really don't have a problem with brit dogs or methods and will try to look like good sports by asking for an example of brit training that maybe they can learn something but they really could care less.

Every few months the cycle repeats itself and nothing really changes....those who get out and train their dogs still end up with the better dogs

Bill