Dog to do it all

[B3]

I've been thinking again(not always a good thing) and wondering about the best approach for the next dog.

Heres the questions I've come up with........

If you want a dog to do it all, like HT and FT which path do you take? Train exclusively for FT and throw 300 yd derby doubles at a year old? Or go up through the HT ranks and keep the distances shorter and less tight?

Troy's dog is looking like a HT dog who can play with the white coats. Is the HT training likely to limit potential if you wanted to play the FT game later? Would a HT dog who plays FT later be more rounded,mature, and steady and maybe better equipped to deal with the pressure of all age work later on?

Are there HT dogs that later became strong all age competitors? Just wondering if all the FT learning must be done early on or is it learned just as well when they are 3 or 4 or 5 years old?

Bill

[Troy Williams]

Heres the questions I've come up with........

If you want a dog to do it all, like HT and FT which path do you take? Train exclusively for FT and throw 300 yd derby doubles at a year old? Or go up through the HT ranks and keep the distances shorter and less tight?Bill

There are so many things FT dogs do that doesn't come naturally that I believe that one should train the "FT way" no matter the venue they choose to run.

Dogs that can understand and handle conflicting birds(marks) can more readily understand marks that aren't.

Troy's dog is looking like a HT dog who can play with the white coats. Is the HT training likely to limit potential if you wanted to play the FT game later? Would a HT dog who plays FT later be more rounded,mature, and steady and maybe better equipped to deal with the pressure of all age work later on?Bill

Yes HT training is VERY likely to limit FT potential except for the most exceptional dog. HT dogs in my experience are not steadier than FT dogs. I think an advanced HT dog would endure more pressure to convert to FT's depending on the hands they were in.

I really don't know to what level my dogs can play FTs as I am just learning what to expect from judges and how to handle & train them for placements. As my education continues my theories on training are holding up. I lack one major thing that is majorly holding me back. I hope I can get that fixed before it is too late to see at what level Stone and Cody can play. My gut tells me we can play. My experience thus far tells me we can play.

Are there HT dogs that later became strong all age competitors? Just wondering if all the FT learning must be done early on or is it learned just as well when they are 3 or 4 or 5 years old?
Bill

Dowtown Dusty Brown was initially a HT dog but I don't know how he was trained thru basics/transition. He may have been trained the 'FT way'.?
As with anything dogs, common thought today is that a dog with a solid puppyhood and strong foundation is generally where most great dogs are made.

[goosebruce]

Please explain the ht way, and the ft way. As 95% of all pros and sucessful amatures train basically a lardy type way, Im lost at the ht way and ft way of training. I would say methods are basically the same, but standards and tasks are where the difference is. I would say a talented dog trained with a modern program, to the highest standard possible, could play any game that has been concieved, ht, ft, srs, or even the wildrose world championship. While the tasks may require some exposure, if the training is solid and the standards are solid, the main difference will be talent of the animal and handler.

Playing field trials and being successful at all age work is 2 really different things. Remember no matter the path you took, the odds are against you doing the latter, so any examples for or against must be looked at in that lite. I would venture to say that dogs that originally start off being upper level hunt test dogs probably have a higher % of wins when they make the jump... not because its the best path, because (for the most part) its only considered with the very best dogs that have already succeded in something (no washout rate, cause they are already made several cuts). You've got 2 really different pools your %'s are coming out of, so the cause & effect isnt there you're looking for #s to support. When a dog like pete marcellus daisy gets her AFC, can you for a moment think that dogs career wouldnt have happened if he hadnt run 40 finished tests with her? No... shes an incredible animal, and hes obviously a talented dog man.. their sucess isnt from their path, rather from the dog/handler/trainer relatinship, her talent, and their standards early on. travis

[gator]

i was thinking there was a DEFINITE "line of demarcation" b/t a serious HT trainer wanting upper level HT work done by the dog vs a serious FT trainer reaching for that particular brass ring....

i'm thinking that "line in the sand" was drawn when lardy says in his 3rd disc -- and i'm paraphrasing, but -- up to this point EVERY dog should be trained the same way, after this, if you are running HT's, break out the camo, guns, duck calls, dekes, and hidden guns........FTers, break out the white coats, shots in the field, retired guns, etc.... that ain't "what" he said, but it's close.....i only mention lardy b/c he's already been brought up.......kinda hard to argue against that success.

i guess this argument is sorta like when i (or anyone else) states the way they think the grand outta function, then the guys that's "been there" tell ya you can't possibly have an opinion worth a dam about that, b/c you "ain't" been there....i'm prone to believe, if you ain't been on the line for both venues, you fall into "my category", regardless of success/failure.

i also tend to fall into the crowd of "if you wanna go for it, GO FOR IT" and fugg all this % crap and DISTANCE yourself from training buds that say it "can't be done"......FTs are a loosers ballgame, most folks "get that"....you best have a mindset in which you can "get something" outta each series positive, or i imagine you'd burn out pretty quick....

after watching ALL MANNER of dogs sportin around those upper level HT titles (mine included) and training a time or 2 w/ a pretty darn successful amateur FT handler/trainer, i'd say you BETTER TRAIN different at some point and you better couple it w/ a different mindset to boot....

i'm pretty sure it's MUCH EASIER to "step down" in training (i.e. coming down from 4 series of brutality among marks and blinds) to a 150 yd "hunting scenario".........and, i'm "pretty sure" the WRC showed that....

but, hey, that's my dumass opinion........gator

[goosebruce]

Hmmmm... so your disagreeing with what I said, by saying the same thing? The lardy said all dogs should be trained the same until you get to the window dressing... thats what I said. Standards are the difference, and tasks. WRC showed its easier to go down in tasks, not in training. FT dogs have to have a much higher standard to complete a task to satisfaction, not just do it. If ht dogs where trained to as high of a standard (on average of course), they'd adjust much easier. The standards and tasks are the difference, nothing more. So like I said gator... the standards coming up are the difference! Train the best you can, the eventual job makes no difference.

Is it any more work to throw a bird 400 yards, than it is 150? No, but it is much more work to have a dog that can pick up that 400 yard bird because his standard is so high fighting every factor, than it is to have one that can kinda go out there and find it at 150.

I can only assume this was directed at me as well... also tend to fall into the crowd of "if you wanna go for it, GO FOR IT" and fugg all this % crap and DISTANCE yourself from training buds that say it "can't be done"......FTs are a loosers ballgame, most folks "get that"....you best have a mindset in which you can "get something" outta each series positive, or i imagine you'd burn out pretty quick.... Dunno. Only person I ever told they couldnt do field trials was you.. not because of your talent, cause your feelings get hurt. It would defiently be only in your mind. I havent been anything but supportive of the people in this thread in fts, up to the point of throwing birds and setting up tests, and even sending a dog with troy & going to watch him. I only mentioned % because it was brought up about paths, and thats a misleading % at best. travis

[Tripp DuPerrieu]

Difference between the "HT way" and the "FT way"? Using the "HT way" we rely on our dogs natural abiltiy to mark WAY too much. The "FT way", we take the natural abilty God gave the dog and we teach the dog to do it better.

YES, you can take a HT dog trained the "HT way" and extend their blind work to 400 yards or so.....it is all a trained response and you spend tons of time on developing that training.

NO, you can't take a dog trained the "HT way", put out some white coats, throw some big marks and say, damn, this is easy!" It don't happen that way.

THE biggest difference I see in a dog trained the "FT way" vs. the "HT way" is that the HT'ers typically rely on the dogs natural ability to mark. The "FT way" is to TEACH marking. Yeah, I'm guilty of relying on my dogs natural abilty to mark..... but that is in the past. We are working on taught marking now the "FT way" and will be better off for it in the long run.

[goosebruce]

Trip, thats a great assessment... but if we took the steps to teach to the highest of standards, wouldnt the game (and the tasks) be irrelevent? The HT way you speak of, is basically doing enough to get by... if we trained with the ideal of perfection and a hi standard, the very real problems you mentioned wouldnt happen. Then you could take an advanced dog and show him the new tasks and have a smooth transititon. No different than someone with a 'gundog' who decides to play hunt tests.. the standards the dog where trained to are the limiting factors well before talent can ever be accessed. The dogs mentioned where advanced dogs that where put together right, and made the transistion and had the talent to win. The key parts of that are put together right, and had the talent.

Standards, experience, and talent (the dogs) wins field trials. You cant do much about talent or experience, but you can certainly control standards. travis

[Marty N.]

You can have both, here comes the big "BUT" it has been my experience that dogs trying to move on to the FT game after achieving a Master Title do fairly well in the Q and with a change of training techniques can go on to the Open and the AM.
BUT the big problem as some one stated a manner of standards and taught marking.
Giving the dog a foundation to make the proper choice in a tough marking scenario. Coupled with them learning to look past the short guns consistantly to find that long bird. Are the two area's that take the longest time for any dog not just a HT dog to overcome.
A HT dog will compete eventually if the trainer has the skills and the dog has the talent. You just have to rethink priorities and retool your trainig program not your standards (you should already have them where they need to be) and most of all be even more paitent with your dog as he progress. Open All Age performance is the standard and getting there is a whole lot of work but it should be a whole lot of fun as well.
Marty

[B3]

As far as a FT vs a HT "way"....Is there a difference? Lets talk about BEFORE formal training from birth to 6 months. Would you do anything different? For the FT pup more birds? flyers? less early steadying?

Just wondering if theres a different "way" or simply different standards.

Bill

[H20K9]

I started out in HT, but acquired a pup that was capable of FT work and by the grace of God had access to a Pro in my area I could throw birds for and get FT training. I've stood at the line at the highest levels of both games and I can tell ya that neither one ain't no joke. I wholeheartedly agree with Travis in the fact that for young dogs, HT or FT, there is no difference in training methods or techniques. The difference and eventually the "choice" you have to make comes to when you start into transition.

My philosophy on this is that I am going to train to a FT standard, and be able to run whatever venue I choose. It is much easier to make a dog check up on a HT mark than to to try and teach to drive thru to a FT level mark after it has been trained otherwise. If you teach the marking concepts and blind concepts that are inherent in a FT scenario, when you get to that tough master test (which are resembling the "Q" more and more every season), you are much better prepared for whatever the judges throw at you.

just my .0015

[Tripp DuPerrieu]

Bill, I believe the "way" doesn't change until you reach transition. Then the "way" does change.

The standard should never change. High standards equal more birds in HT's, FT's, and during a normal days hunt.

Travis, I do feel as though the game is relevant, but just because of the distance and the changing factors that you see at a FT vs. that of an unchanging list of factors that a dog is encountered with at a HT.

[Marty N.]

Bill
I currently have a young pup about 6 months old, I am considering giving him the chance to run Derbies with the end goal being Qualified All Age.
Up to this point he has been taught to look out past multiple stations at least 3 to find a gun. The stations are in the 75 to 150 range and the long gun is about 200+. Right now I do not expect him to do a great job on the marks as a matter of fact he gets quite a few momentume marks when necessary.
The one thing that in my opinion is imperative is that the pup learn to ignore a short gun or guns and find the long gun. I am even having gunners in chairs and standing at the short stations to add to the drill of looking out. I have been working on this about 3 weeks on short cover with little terrian. He never gets a short mark, only walking singles off of the long gun, through and behind the short stations or bird boys.
Other than this everything else is pretty much the same, I am starting FF this week and will replace bumpers with birds.
Marty

[70 sprig]

Marty , when you get him back on that set-up would you holler , I'd like to come down and check it out one day . The little billy goat chaser that I brought down to visit you a year or so ago has blossomed . I'm considering trying some new stuff

[Jay Dufour]

The FT pros that win consistantly,will wash out a retriever in a New York second.Alot of the dogs on thier truck have been basic trained by a "young dog trainer" ,where alot of evaluation has been done already.By the time this dog goes to the line with Lardy,Eckett,Farmer......they have made some helatious cuts,and are highly capable of winning that trail.I admire the amateur that can hang with Fideaux through all the trials and tribulations in training and trialing,and not wash him out,but keep working,because he actually loves the dog,and snaggs that JAM or even finishes an Open.I feel that Pete M. would not have washed his dog if she had a rough time picking up on a concept or fell off marking for a couple of weeks.It boils down to the big names have cherry picked dogs on the truck,that are daunting competition when we have that one chance to stay in the game.

[Marty N.]

Dependig on the weather and who in my training group wants to train this weekend I will probable run that set up, at least once. Not alot of water in the area's I hunt so I am training more on the weekends than hunting. If we ever get some rain to fill up the cut-off and a few other places I like to hunt that is subject to change.
As I posted earlier any of you guys are welcome to come down or up and train anytime.
Marty