just outta curiosity: re, e-collar use...

[gator]

after all the CC work, FTP work, et al, do you find yourself (those that use the collar ) using the NICK feature or the CONSTANT feature.....

this may be better worded thinking "on average which do you use"?

i had a conversation w/ Troy up at nashville about his Lardy seminar he attended......something which makes ALOT of since to me was i have been able to sit down and think about "my training sans collar"....

now, i've trained Gauge w/out the collar, and feel i've learned a TREMENDOUS amount about corrections and the whens and wheres.....BUT, the next pup w/ the tronic -- just ain't no substitute for it really....

and, as such, i'm interested in what you do when it's TIME for that button to be pushed.....

the little "factoid" will be forth-coming, but for now, what say you?

gator

[kaustin]

I very rarely use the momentary switch. I feel with the continuous I can controll how long the stimulous is applied. The dog can then "turn off" the stimulous by complying. With the momentary the dog does not have to do anything to turn it off. I am a novice so take it easy on me if this concept is way off.

[Cotten]

Nick.

[msbigdawg1234]

Nick

[goosebruce]

Burn or BURN depending on the correction. Nicks have a way of spooking some dogs, or nagging a dog, or the dog not understanding why he just got pricked. Most dogs respond better to a clear cut real correction, than a dozen nagging corrections.

Once I started using a burn and varying by intesnity and duration myself, I found myself doing a much better job of collar condtioning, and force work, and using the collar less and getting more out of it. travis

[Duck Chaser]

the only time I can think of using a nick, is maybe an indirect correction on sit. and imho indirect pressure is more suited for the early stages of casting. I use the collar less and less, but its continuous when/if I do correct now.

I will say I noticed while watching lardy's stuff, that sometimes he may say nick, when it's actually a quick continuous.

[B3]

I use my tt mostly on continuous mode but most corrections are "nicks" by making short corrections. I think thats because most of my corrections are indirect SIT NICK SIT corrections in the field. I use continuous burns for slow or looping sit or not coming in quick to a recall whistle. I think the nick works best when he's totally under control and ain't great when he's moving.

I was at a seminar this summer and was told that the nicks on a pro 500 are actually of varying length. i.e. a 3 low nick is at 3 high intensity but very short. a 3 medium nick is at 3 high intensity but is a little longer...and a 3 high is at 3 high intensity but is longer still.....so even a nick becomes a burn in a way

I have to admit I've been using a collar only a bit over a year. I've trained more without it and even though mine wear a collar all the time, most of their training does not involve collar correction. I still do mostly what I'm used to which is mostly attrition.

Bill

[Troy Williams]

I was at a seminar this summer and was told that the nicks on a pro 500 are actually of varying length. i.e. a 3 low nick is at 3 high intensity but very short. a 3 medium nick is at 3 high intensity but is a little longer...and a 3 high is at 3 high intensity but is longer still.....so even a nick becomes a burn in a way

Bill

Best way to tell is put the collar to your ear (not the contact points-ouch) and listen to the collar work. You can tell the change in the intensity by the sound.

[MD11Pilot]

Some of the responses to this surprised me. The King (Lardy) uses momentary stimulation in his program relying on "indirect pressure". Most pros I know and train with use momentary on intermediate/advanced dogs. There may be a place for continuous stimulation and the old Dobbs avoidance training methods in early trng, but I thought that was out of vogue. My 500 never comes off momentary unless I'm expecting to correct for a break on honor and want to make a "clear and lasting impression".

"Nick"

[gator]

MD, i'm thinking the terminology (nick vs. constant) is getting "lost in translation" so to speak, but for the present, i'm gonna let it ride.....

i'm kinda hoping troy will describe what he brought home from that seminar, as he saw it. but, if not, i'll paraphrase our conversation best i can, and describe why i think it's so simple and straightforward.

"it" being the reason for the correction in the first place....

gator

[goosebruce]

I think you'll find the lardy school of thought uses a burn of varying lenghts (thats where we learned it)... its not a contious hold down till it times out burn like a a breaking correction your thinking of. With a pro 500 & controlling how long your burn is (1/10 of a second by pushing and letting off, or a half second) you got 3 levels and plenty of different lenghts without ever going to the dial & taking your eyes off of dog. travis

[Marty N.]

Gator
I have a pro 500 collar and have it usually set on cont. I don't feel sometimes that a 3 momentary is quite enough and a 4 momentary is to much. May sound kinda strange but as you use a collar you develope a feel for what is enough correction and what is to much.

I do use a momentary sometimes when doing walking fetch and or collar fetch.

Welcome to the wonderful world of collar trianing, you can make progress quickly, and lose ground even quicker. Just rember Less Is More when it comes to collar training.

Need any help give me a call.
Marty

[gator]

thanks marty, i will sure do that....gator

[B3]

If I recall correctly, in the advanced marking and in advanced total retriever tapes a lot of the corrections are burns. I don't recall him going into detail explaining how and when he uses burn vs nick but it sure wasn't all nicks with his advanced dogs. I got the impression that these dogs rarely needed a correction but when they did it wasn't a little SIT NICK SIT.

I expect these are nuances that can't really be figured out with a videotape and require experience and hands on training and instruction. Since I'm limited in experience and hands on training(of me) when it comes to the collar I may err on the side of too little corection because of lack of confidence.In my case, I still feel this is better than inappropriate or too much collar use.

Most of my corrections with the collar in the field are for repeated refusals. On a blind dog gives a CR. 1st CR its TOOT, repeat cast. 2nd CR its TOOT call in 10 feet TOOT,repeat cast. 3rd CR its TOOT NICK TOOT, then repeat. If he takes it then, then I feel confident that the correction was appropriate because he changed his behavior. If he still took the wrong cast after a SIT NICK SIT then I would expect that the dog didn't understand and that I need to rethink what I've set up. If he didn't get it after a collar correction, I then assume the problem is me and not the dog. At that point I start looking at scooting up and simplifying to make for success without being put in a position of needing to make another correction.

I don't know if my collar use is "correct" or not. This is a good thread because it allows some of us less experienced with the collar to get feedback and see how others with experience use the collar.

Bill

[chip laughton]

I have heard this a few times now. What is attrition?