The Recipe for collapse

[jdbuckshot]

http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/publish ... lapse.html

I find this article to be accurate, and I think that is where our state is headed.

I've been drinking the State management Kool-Aid for years. time to try something else.

[cwink]

http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/publish/posts/3238/the-recipe-for-collapse.html

I find this article to be accurate, and I think that is where our state is headed.

I've been drinking the State management Kool-Aid for years. time to try something else.

So what is the plan? Lower deer harvest??

3 years ago we had a BANNER year.. Big bucks killed just about every weekend.. That was the same year that the bad tornado hit Tuscaloosa.. That cell came right over our camp and the hail decimated the cutovers and big pine thickets so the timber company had to come in and cut the trees before they died and replant the cutovers.. We lost about 1,000 acres of habit. So those deer had to move to other areas of the camp.. Well those cutovers grew up and the last 2 years we have struggled to kill 20 deer of 6k acres. So I can't imagine that we have killed all the deer off.. I mean we normally kill 40 deer about 20 bucks/20 does and the last 2 years the kills have been half that.

I saw a similar situation on another camp we were in 15 years ago.. We used to see 4-5 deer everytime we went out. The landowner got sick and cut a lot of timber. Cutovers grew up, deer numbers sightings went down and membership numbers went down..

Do you think there is anything to the theory that if you have a large portion of your camp in cutovers that those deer stay in those thickets and without anything/anyone to move the deer, they stay hidden...

I mean when you have 6k acres and over half of that is cutover and there are only 6 people hunting, why would the deer have to move. There is ample food in the cutover and no pressure to push them out.

The only thing I can think of now is to lower dues on the camp to increase membership to push more deer out of the thickets.. I would think that if we have 6k acres we should have at least 30 members in the wood at any given time..

[mshunter77]

Just this morning I was having a conversation with a friend that hunts on Anderson Tully land on Steele Bayou. They had by far their worst season. They killed no bucks the camp north of them killed one bigger buck and two youth bucks(they have to be state legal for a youth) the camp south of them only killed one that he knew of and another friend of ours hunts over there and his camp only killed one or two and a youth buck. All of these camps usually kill 7-9 nice bucks a year. He seems to think that the deer are holding up in the thickets. Anderson's Tully came in a few years back and clear cut a 300 yard wide strip running east to west right in the middle of the camp and then 2 years ago clear cut a 40 acre block right behind the camp house. Now these areas are just huge thickets and they also have a strip 300 yards wide that runs north and south that is not a recent cutover but is still just one big thicket. Their deer and hog sightings were way down this year and talking to him this morning he seems to think they are just staying in the thickets. Said several times he caught glimpses of nice deer but they would never come out of the thickets. These camps have been on "big buck" programs for about 10 years now and it has changed several times. Currently they have to have 20" beams or 18" spread. When they went to these guidelines a while back(at the time it may have been 18" beams) I told him they ran the risk of high grading their genetics as they would probably shoot their best genetic carriers as 3 year olds and the less quality genetic carriers may never get shot. Not sure if that is what happened but just a theory of mine. I believe to have a true management program for trophy bucks you need to decide what is a cull for your camp and then only shoot mature bucks and culls not your high quality 3 year olds.

[jdbuckshot]

The points the guys make are this:

Only does can give birth to Bucks

More bucks = better chance of having a bigger buck - "genetic freak"

More bucks = more sighting of bucks.


I'm not saying don't shoot does. I think you have to. but I don't think you have to massacre them. a state wildlife biologist told me this" "if I am growing big bucks, I don't even want a doe on my property "

[dukhntn]

Just this morning I was having a conversation with a friend that hunts on Anderson Tully land on Steele Bayou. They had by far their worst season. They killed no bucks the camp north of them killed one bigger buck and two youth bucks(they have to be state legal for a youth) the camp south of them only killed one that he knew of and another friend of ours hunts over there and his camp only killed one or two and a youth buck. All of these camps usually kill 7-9 nice bucks a year. He seems to think that the deer are holding up in the thickets. Anderson's Tully came in a few years back and clear cut a 300 yard wide strip running east to west right in the middle of the camp and then 2 years ago clear cut a 40 acre block right behind the camp house. Now these areas are just huge thickets and they also have a strip 300 yards wide that runs north and south that is not a recent cutover but is still just one big thicket. Their deer and hog sightings were way down this year and talking to him this morning he seems to think they are just staying in the thickets. Said several times he caught glimpses of nice deer but they would never come out of the thickets. These camps have been on "big buck" programs for about 10 years now and it has changed several times. Currently they have to have 20" beams or 18" spread. When they went to these guidelines a while back(at the time it may have been 18" beams) I told him they ran the risk of high grading their genetics as they would probably shoot their best genetic carriers as 3 year olds and the less quality genetic carriers may never get shot. Not sure if that is what happened but just a theory of mine. I believe to have a true management program for trophy bucks you need to decide what is a cull for your camp and then only shoot mature bucks and culls not your high quality 3 year olds.

I have to believe flooding in this particular area over the last few years is more to blame than the thickets. I do agree with your "high grading" theory though.

[Sod Man]

The whole thing is a money driven ball of crap. If you look back over time people have been killing big deer in this state for ever. The cutover statements are 100% correct of the 3 MOST important things any animal not just deer need to live a cutover gives 2 without a deer even standing up (cover and food). So the only thing he really has to get up to do is drink water. The new fad of genetics is of course driven by what we watch on tv ( me included). Deer are not different than average people and pro athletes, you either have it or you don't. If you kill the son of a 160 ten point when he is 3 years old and he only scores 130 he still has 160 " genes. I maybe wrong but this is my opinion. Sorry for the rant

[mshunter77]

The whole thing is a money driven ball of crap. If you look back over time people have been killing big deer in this state for ever. The cutover statements are 100% correct of the 3 MOST important things any animal not just deer need to live a cutover gives 2 without a deer even standing up (cover and food). So the only thing he really has to get up to do is drink water. The new fad of genetics is of course driven by what we watch on tv ( me included). Deer are not different than average people and pro athletes, you either have it or you don't. If you kill the son of a 160 ten point when he is 3 years old and he only scores 130 he still has 160 " genes. I maybe wrong but this is my opinion. Sorry for the rant

You are correct but if you kill him at 3 years old and let the smaller ones walk till they are 5 years old or older because they do not have a certain beam length or width which genetics get spread around more?

[Sod Man]

I agree with you completely, I guess my only solution to management is to do like some ranches in Texas you set guidelines of 8,10,12 are shooters and everything else is culls. Which is harder here than there because of visibility reasons. My stance on the whole management thing is shoot the bucks you see because there are just as many breeding that you don't see especially on a place that is 6k acres

[stang67]

The root cause sited in the video is the same as the root cause of the problems mentioned in the thread -- an overall lack of deer relative to the past. Not everywhere is experiencing it, but lots of places are. I submit that these high grading claims and genetic complaints would be unnoticed if there were 30% more bucks to choose from in the first place. If I remember right, that was Winke's point.

[cwink]

We made the decision years ago to be a quality deer mgt place, not trophy Buck. A 14 inch deer on our place will be at least a 3 yo buck...The camp has good people and good amenities and is close, but when you cant get a deer to poke its head out of a cut over to let your 8 yo get a shot it gets frustrating fir sure

[jdbuckshot]

We made the decision years ago to be a quality deer mgt place, not trophy Buck. A 14 inch deer on our place will be at least a 3 yo buck...The camp has good people and good amenities and is close, but when you cant get a deer to poke its head out of a cut over to let your 8 yo get a shot it gets frustrating fir sure

We are in the same boat that you are. but in my opinion, the reason they are stuck in that cut over is mostly because of hunting pressure.

I have found on our private land, that you can draw a deer out of a thicket if he feels safe, and if the food you have out there is more desirable than the browse in the cut over.

on our deer camp. we get daylight picture of big deer in food plots all through bow season. and we usually kill a good buck or two-three opening weekend of rife. but after the orange army floods the woods, sightings and harvest #'s go way down.

[cwink]

I can understand the big bucks staying hidden, but I have yet to understand what is keeping the does hidden.. I saw 1 doe all year and she was 400 yds off. Everything else has been little bucks.. We almost got him a small buck this past week.. Had a chance at one last Monday and this past Saturday afternoon, but just couldn't get him situated in the stand before we scared the bucks off...

[bigoak]

I can understand the big bucks staying hidden, but I have yet to understand what is keeping the does hidden.. I saw 1 doe all year and she was 400 yds off. Everything else has been little bucks.. We almost got him a small buck this past week.. Had a chance at one last Monday and this past Saturday afternoon, but just couldn't get him situated in the stand before we scared the bucks off...

Are your food plots being utilized? Are they grazed down to the ground? That will tell you if there are many dear on your property. Camera surveys will also help.

Here is what happens on our club. This may be true for your club. We see a lot of deer on the food plots the first three weeks of season. Then they go nocturnal, including does. We over hunt the food plots which causes a couple of problems. Most of our members do not pay attention to wind direction so they get winded a lot. You will hear stories like this: well three does walked out and all of a sudden they started stomping and snorting and they ran off but I don't know why. If the deer wind you two or three times in a food plot then they will stay out of there until after dark. Or they will show up at odd hours of the day. They will not come out from 4:00pm til dark. Most of our food plots are small and if a deer comes out he may only be 50 yards or less. You have to be still and quiet. If they see or hear you a couple of times then the get even more educated.

We also have a couple of outlaws that live next to us that shoot deer out of their living room windows over a corn pile under a night light. By the end of the season they have pretty much wiped out all the bucks within a two mile radius. You may want to think about who lives close to your property. Ride around at night and see who has night lights in their yard. See if there are feeders under the lights. Ask around and see if any neighbors have heard gunshots during the night.

[mshunter77]

It takes a very large deer herd to get to the point where they are struggling for food. I think people have gone a little overboard with the doe harvest numbers in some areas. The only advantage I can think of for having less does is that the bucks have to look for them harder so they move more at the same time if you don't have the does the bucks will go on somebody else's land that has does.

[SNEAKER]

It's all according to what you want your place to be. If you want to see a bunch of deer everytime you go, then don't shoot a bunch of does. Just shoot a few to eat. And you will have a lot of deer, and they wont be as healthy as they might could be. You can still grow some nice racks, with the occasional really big deer. If you want the bucks on your place to have the biggest rack they can possibly grow, then you will have to have far fewer deer. If you are managing for 150+ deer, then you won't be seeing a bunch of deer when you hunt.

We have been hammering the does for years, playing catchup from several years of limited harvest. Body weights and antler size had dropped significantly. Which means they didn't have enough food. We are getting back on track and had a stellar season this year. Does are getting hard to come by these days, but that's the way it should be when you are trying to reduce the number of your herd.