Take Me Back Tuesday: GLOBAL WARMING CORRAL

[mudsucker]

Lot's of dinosaur farts back then!

[Po Monkey Lounger]

If we took everything that's in ANWR, the continental shelf and the Rockies (the big three that the administration wants to open up), we'd see gas prices lowered by about three cents a gallon.

Mottlet, you are assuming that our demand and consumption level of oil will stay the same ---I think it will go down drastically due to US ingenuity with respect to more efficient vehicles (and other improved efficiencies in petro energy use). And you apparently see no benefit to being able to eliminate our dependence upon any oil from the middle east. We have enough oil reserves in these areas you mentioned to completely replace the remaining amount of oil we import from the Saudis in the middle east.

The answer to our energy needs for now and the future is not one thing ---it is a multitude of things ---everything should be on the table. IF I hear one more person say "we can't drill our way out of this problem", I may have to hurt them. That is a cop out, because no one is saying that we can. Such is just an excuse for doing nothing. More domestic drilling is just one small part of the overall solution. The "do nothing" approach of Congress is not accomplishing much.

Our energies and $$$ should be spent on more efficient use of petro energy and continued development of alternative energy sources, including nuclear, hydro, solar, windmills, clean burning coal, and other sources, depending upon the region of the US and what it has available that makes the most sense. With higher gas prices, the market will work to bring about long needed change. I trust American ingenuity --- we are the best in the world at finding solutions to problems.

We should not be wasting any time or money fighting a problem like GW that does not exist. It is NOT getting warmer. At least not for quite some time, and the future trend appears to be just the opposite. Greenhouse gases are natural and necessary. The greenhouse effect produces both heating and cooling at the same time, which often serve to offset each other. This is just one reason why the computer climate models, which do not take this basic science into account, are NOT anywhere close to being accurate.

[cwink]

If we took everything that's in ANWR, the continental shelf and the Rockies (the big three that the administration wants to open up), we'd see gas prices lowered by about three cents a gallon.

Mottlet, you are assuming that our demand and consumption level of oil will stay the same ---I think it will go down drastically due to US ingenuity with respect to more efficient vehicles (and other improved efficiencies in petro energy use). And you apparently see no benefit to being able to eliminate our dependence upon any oil from the middle east. We have enough oil reserves in these areas you mentioned to completely replace the remaining amount of oil we import from the Saudis in the middle east.

The answer to our energy needs for now and the future is not one thing ---it is a multitude of things ---everything should be on the table. IF I hear one more person say "we can't drill our way out of this problem", I may have to hurt them. That is a cop out, because no one is saying that we can. Such is just an excuse for doing nothing. More domestic drilling is just one small part of the overall solution. The "do nothing" approach of Congress is not accomplishing much.

Our energies and $$$ should be spent on more efficient use of petro energy and continued development of alternative energy sources, including nuclear, hydro, solar, windmills, clean burning coal, and other sources, depending upon the region of the US and what it has available that makes the most sense. With higher gas prices, the market will work to bring about long needed change. I trust American ingenuity --- we are the best in the world at finding solutions to problems.

We should not be wasting any time or money fighting a problem like GW that does not exist. It is NOT getting warmer. At least not for quite some time, and the future trend appears to be just the opposite. Greenhouse gases are natural and necessary. The greenshouse effect produces both heating and cooling at the same time, which often serve to offset each other. This is just one reason why the computer climate models, which do not take this basis science into account, are NOT anythere close to being accurate.

Amen... The only problem I have with that statement is

I trust American ingenuity --- we are the best in the world at finding solutions to problems.

We can as long as Congress stays out of the way..

[hotty toddy]

I will second that AMEN.

We need a leader that will step forward in this country and scream enough, I cant take this chit no mo. And then get to work finding ways out of relying on foreign oil.

Climate change is one thing, and maybe that is happening, I dont know, you dont know, no one knows but guess what it's natural.

Until we get the focus off of GW and on to fixing the problems at hand nothing will change.

Until then I am starting a new conservation program, I will not be buying any more toilet paper, I have decided to use liberal GW wackos to take its place.

[mottlet]

cwink,
Scientists measure carbon in the atmosphere from years past by collecting ice cores and measuring several variables that are trapped in bubbles in the ice. The depth of the bubble on the core tells them from how long ago that particular measurement comes from. That's my very crude description of the process. Google atmospheric carbon measurements ice cores and I'm sure you'll find a better description.

Can't drill our way to energy independence. Don't care if you want to hurt me or use me for toilet paper. Every drop of oil we bring up domestically goes on a WORLDWIDE market. Even when new sites such as ANWR are developed, YEARS into the future if they got the go ahead right now, that oil will go on the same worldwide market. And while there's no evidence that U.S. demand for oil is going to go down, assume that it does. Worldwide demand simply isn't going down. India and China will see to that. And that oil that comes out of ANWR, the Rockies, the Continental shelf, will go onto the same WORLDWIDE market we buy it on now. India and China and whoever else is industrializing at the time WILL drive up the price. Oil from the U.S. Oil from the Middle East. All of it. So even with more crude on the market, you're looking a saving of about three cents a gallon. That's before the futures market gets ahold of it. And oil production peaked world-wide some time back. What's that gonna do to speculators when a fresh new cache comes on the market?

Can U.S. scientists develop the next wave of energy technologies? Absolutely. But not while our government clings to an antiquated energy strategy. If our future isn't in fossil fuels, why haven't we invested in cleaner technologies so that a damn wind turbine doesn't eight kajillion dollars? Why are government energy subsidies going to oil companies and not solar and wind powers? It costs money to develop a technology to the point that the average consumer can afford it. Our government has shown that kind of love to big oil and only big oil.

If it upsets you to hear me say these things, get over it. For the most part, I've avoided this thread because I got a lot of friends on this site, a lot who probably disagree with me and I desparately wanted to avoid pissing matches. Just because someone disagrees with you boys, doesn't make him the enemy. And if that's how you feel, then I suggest using page 83 of the latest Delta Waterfowl magazine as that first piece of tp. Guess those GW wackos at Delta, DU, Pheasants forever, AFWA and WMI make as good a place to start as any.

Y'all have fun, I got work to do.

[cwink]

cwink,
Scientists measure carbon in the atmosphere from years past by collecting ice cores and measuring several variables that are trapped in bubbles in the ice. The depth of the bubble on the core tells them from how long ago that particular measurement comes from. That's my very crude description of the process. Google atmospheric carbon measurements ice cores and I'm sure you'll find a better description.

Mottlet,

I know about core samples and carbon dating techniques, but to me these are estimates.. You can estimate that carbon breaks down at a predicted rate, assuming that rate stays constant over millions of years (which is the part that is un-provable). For all we know, it may stop breaking down at 5,000 years, or may speed up, or it may be a variable depending on the enviornment at the time. My point is, I don't think you can compare 50 years worth of verifiable recorded data to questimates from soil or carbon that may or may not be a good stagnate or predictable measuring stick. To date no one can confirm the exact demise of the dinosaurs, was it a volcanic eruption a meteor or some other catstrophic event? If they can't nail something that BIG down, I don't expect them to be able to tell a small think like the amount of carbon in the air 250,000 years ago.

[hotty toddy]

Mottlet, didnt mean to hurt your feelings or nothin, but here is my point and it is alot like Cwink's. Yes the ice cores and all say this, and this says that, but you have to agree that no one knows what is going to happen. "Science" has been wrong before you know.

We can debate all we want on here but you are right on one thing, the powers that be need to come up with some programs that further foster the development of alternative energy and should have years ago. But they need to do this not because chicken little said the sky is falling or Al Gore said the ice caps are melting but because it will make us independent of foreign energy sources and yes it is better for the enviroment.

The GW crowd's influence on the speculators in my mind are partly to blame for the price of oil now though.

Common sense is what we need and that is all it boils down to and how arogant are we as a race to believe that we could cause such cataclysmic changes to the earth in just over 100 years of fossil fuel use?

[mottlet]

My feelings ain't hurt. I get cussed every day by every interest out there because I get paid to stand up for wildlife. Like I said, I consider the folks here my friends. But I DO get tired of being pigeon-holed as some hippie, liberal tree-hugger just because of what I think about one issue. I try to avoid that kinda stuff because when it gets to that point, nobody's listening anymore. And folks ain't gotta change each others' mind to have a thoughtful, informed discussion. And I drink bourbon in the Grove and kill schit when I'm back home, just like you fellas.

Global warming's a tough issue. BUT, to fix it, we have to do stuff we're gonna have to do anyway, stop burning fossil fuels. The problem of global warming just shortens the timetable. Drastically. The administration's stance on drilling might be a little more palatable if they admitted that drilling's a stopgap measure, to be used only until we get other sources of energy online, as Po Monk alluded to. But that commitment just isn't there. Never has been. It's never been, "Drill now, but while we're doing that, we're going to invest heavily in wind and solar research and development." Or hydro and biofuels. Or whatever. It's just drill. And the only places left to drill domestically are areas that were originally set aside to be sanctuaries for wildlife and for people to enjoy wildlife. I've never been to the Arctic Refuge or the Roan Plateau, but maybe I'd like to go someday. And I'd be infuriated to no end if the government leased Delta National or Panther Swamp to a drilling company because THEY were too short-sighted to develop anything resembling a long-term energy strategy.

[rustypjr]

I filled up a nalgene bottle today instead of buying bottles and the sun was behind the clouds most of the day.

Just doing my part! And I think it is working.

[Money]

Where's "Panic at Hobstock" when you need it.

[Hammer]

Hey Veteran:

We caused a hole in the ozone by using ChFCs...We caused Acid Rain by burning coal in NE United States power plants...We are causing a 8000-10000 square mile Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico... We have caused massive extinction of tens of thousands of species of plants, animals and insects...

We ate the apple a long time ago dude....In the process, we have- with Satan's help- the ability to render ourselves extinct whether from Global Warming, Nuclear/Biological/Chemical war, overpopulation, or whatever...

It is up to us - not God - to save ourselves from ourselves....We can either accept the full power of the Gospel, repent and start treating each other and the planet in a Christ like manner or we can continue on the road we are on and live out our days in a Mad Max/Waterworld sort of existence with massive starvation, massive disease pandemics, wars over food and water, etc....

The choice was ours in the Garden and it is ours today...It has always been up to us and it is still up to us....Eat the apple or dont eat the apple? Repent, accept Christ and be part of the solution or live in the flesh and be part of the problem...

God created us in His image in a world with limits on air, food, water and most importantly, love, except through His son, my saviour Jesus of Nazareth. Only through Jesus are the finite limits of love broken. More than anything else, it is love that will give us the will to quit living like spoiled children, lace up our boot straps and get to work fixing the many problems in our contemporary world and on the horizon for our children...

There are many ways to say what I just said and while I prefer the Christian perspective (Google the Evangelical Environmental Network for more on this subject), the Native American perspective is equally compelling, not that you or anybody else on MSD knows any Native Americans, has studied any Native American traditions or has bothered to ask any Native Americans what they think about contemporary America. I have been blessed to walk some trails with my Native American brothers and can readily tell you that their traditions have predicted the darkness of the current days and more to come.

Bottomline: Satan is having a field day on Earth. Environmental degradation is just one of the plethora of tactics the Fallen Angel uses to damn humanity. Ignore this at your own peril.

[Po Monkey Lounger]

Hammer, there is nothing at all wrong with expressing your opinions on GW/ CO2 levels/ climate change. And there is nothing generally wrong with expressing your viewpoints regarding religion. But, for you to suggest that those who do not accept your beliefs re GW/CO2 levels/climate change are somehow less of a christian than you, and at least indirectly suggest that we are followers of satan, is just plain offensive, and way over the line, IMO.

Unfortunately, this is a type of debate tactic that is often used by those who cannot fairly debate ideas, or whose ideas don't have sufficient factual support, which results in them resorting to a type of name calling to discredit those who disagree with them ---- this name calling usually takes the form of some reference to a historical evil person like Hitler, Stalin, etc. In this instance, this attempt to merge this debate into religion is even worse, as it is a shameful perversion of religion, IMO.

[Hammer]

Whoa PML, nice try defending an attack that never occurred to turn the tide against the phantom attacker...Sneaky lawyer trick 101...

I never thought, inferred or suggested that anybody was more or less under the influence of Satan than anybody else...We are all sinners, each and every one of us...Ever since Adam ate the apple, WE have ALL fallen into sin, suffered death and were/are buried and only ONE of us- THE ONE- Jesus of Nazareth- rose above it, kicked Satan's butt and overcame evil and death....

Lets be perfectly clear, I am not condemning you or anybody else more than I am condemning the next guy...I am condemning HUMANITY- all of us- and the Book backs me up 1000 X 1000 x 1000 percent....I see GW as a test- Will humanity rise about its inherently evil nature, repent and move forward or will the lust for money, power, etc lead us down the road we currently walk to a very bad place?

I am suggesting is that the vast majority of MSD users and folks in general ahve not connected the dots from Satan to environmental degradation...God The Father created our Mother Earth and it is the same human HUBRIS that resulted in our eating the apple that results in our despoiling Mother Earth...

We have no right to render extinct species that were created by God the Father and we have no right to change the composition of the atmosphere by almost doubling CO2 content in 250 years...Only as a result of human hubris would we ever allow such things to happen...

Human kind has consistently put our own selfish, base, animal desires/instincts ahead of our relationship with God and it is this instinct- the Seven Deadly Sins- that have us in the fix we are in...For the first time in human history (except perhaps during the Cuban Missile Crisis), humanity is on the verge of rendering the planet largely uninhabitable...The poor and disenfranchised are already feeling the effects and unless something happens soon, all of us will feel them and it wont be pretty...

You and your GW naysayers deny that we are in a fix on GW despite what the Catholic Church and a host of other religions all over the world say...I am asking you to connect the dots- nothing more, nothing less.

[Po Monkey Lounger]

No lawyer tricks or connecting the dots needed to see through your little ruse. Now that this thread/debate has ventured off into the twilight zone, its perhaps time for me to do my little part to help end it.

[JDgator]

The administration's stance on drilling might be a little more palatable if they admitted that drilling's a stopgap measure, to be used only until we get other sources of energy online, as Po Monk alluded to. But that commitment just isn't there. Never has been. It's never been, "Drill now, but while we're doing that, we're going to invest heavily in wind and solar research and development." Or hydro and biofuels. Or whatever. It's just drill.

I agree with that. If gas prices went to 1.50 tommorow, sales on big trucks would pick up and everyone would forget about becoming more fuel efficient.