What is REALLY a controlled break...HRC test...

[Mike Perry]

Well here is the end of the good discussion. It has been excellent so far BTW.
Is it a CB if a dog that ios tapping its feet, hopping a little, up on its toes, butt halfway up, tail wagging and ready to go at a seconds notice if the handler says HEEL or SIT. Dog not necessarily moving forward but not still either.
A lot of us have pretty high rolling dogs that don't need to be told twice to go but will never break, but are loose at the line. I note in my book "Loose to the line" or "jumpy" but not a CB unless the dog makes a conscious effort to try to beat the command.
Specifically to Kens pix, I would have a note next to the 3rd pic of "Creepy or Jumpy" but unless he was pretty vocal with a "NO HERE" don't see a CB there. Dog is a little forward but showing good desire. If that were the go bird and Ken let him sit for 2-3 seconds before the send, no big deal to me. Dog was obviously in control because he waited for the send.
IMO there is some gray area here that has to be left open to subjective judging.
I have started to really crack down on the line manners on all my younger dogs the last couple years just to avoid this type of stuff and also think the steadier they are, the better markers they are.
JMHO
MP

[jksboxofchocolates]

Mike,

I have been blessed with with 6 dogs in my hunt test life and all of them have had lots of desire. I do believe that some dogs are too hot for what we do in HRC. I have owned one for sure that was. Anyway, I believe that you are on the right track with your young dogs on raising your standard of obedience. Make sure to not mix up lots of desire with poor obedience.

Wagars, even at almost 9 has tons of go and desire. I wish I had a picture of a Finished test that Wagars and I ran when he was younger. The first bird landed straight out from my right shoulder, middle bird was directly out from us and the third bird was about 15 degrees behind my left shoulder. Wagars doesn't move to see marks so I spent alot of time at the line trying to place him where he would be able to see the 1st bird past me an still be able to be in position to see the third one. When it was all said and done the left side of his face was up against his shoulder to see that last mark to the point that the judges commented on it. That is a great problem to have.

IMHO, if a dog is tapping and dancing but not leaving I don't care what you say to your dog.

Janet

[cdwyer]

I dont want that in anyones minds on the weekends.

Why?

[gator]

travis, before you answer and thus, end the thread, i'd appreciate you giving MRC DREAM a chance to grab his thesaurus and come up w/ yet another glowing response brimming w/ intelligence and thoughtfulness.

thanks

gator

[goosebruce]

Because an army of judges, with the cut and dried mentailty of if the handler spoke to a moving dog its a controled break, you'll now have dogs with 4 and 5 controlled breaks from one judge and none from the other judge. If a dog can have so many 'little' controlled break by the cut and dried definetion, whose to say it can't have more big ones?

If your yelling at your dog for it to stay put, your distubring my hunt and the dog should be picked up for being out of control. But no matter what the handler does, at the weekend, in my mind, and my understanding, if the dog aint going it cant be a controlled break. Just like it can't be a resend if your dog breaks and you have to call it back... but the 'cut and dried' defintion of a resend is returning to the line with an unproductive retreive. A cb and a reheel obviously isnt a resend, but when you start make the defintions easier, you make the distinctions harder. Thats all I gots to say about that. travis

[gator]

MRC DREAM, you may have the thread locked now....

next subject.

gator

[MRC Dream]

A lot of us have pretty high rolling dogs that don't need to be told twice to go but will never break, but are loose at the line. I note in my book "Loose to the line" or "jumpy" but not a CB unless the dog makes a conscious effort to try to beat the command.

JMHO
MP

Why would you note anything at all? Seems to me you are looking for justification for later failing a dog and being able to go back to your notes for backup. You should judge what you see. No controlled break, then it's done. Why note a dog is "jumpy"? What purpose in judging is that? Sometimes judges look for crap to judge, instead of taking in and watching the dogs work.

Note to self: Do not ever run under Mikey.

Now it's done gator.......

Thread Killer Regards,

DIB

[GulfCoast]

Actually, if I am really doing the job I singed up to do as a judge, since control is being judged from the holding blind, to the line, at the line, and on the way out, I make the same type of notes. I do the same thing for delivery, etc. Those things go right to the heart of the essential question: "Would I want to hunt with this dog?" I have never failed a dog for lack of cumulative control, but I probably should have a couple of times. I believe its always better to record MORE than less information on the sheet, both good and bad. Many handlers that have passed still like to see their sheets, to see what the judges were thinking of the dog's performance. Was "X" cast judged a refusal, scallop, whatever. Its a very smart thing for a handler to do. I want there to be enough on the sheet to have an intelligent discussion with the handler(s). That why the club has asked me, or whoever, to sit in the chair. Assuming that there is an intelligent handler to have a discussion with in the first place.

[gator]

Why would you note anything at all? Seems to me you are looking for justification for later failing a dog and being able to go back to your notes for backup. You should judge what you see.

ladies and gentlemen of the jury..............i implore you.

TAKE HIS KEYBOARD AWAY and give him something he can work with...............like lego blocks............or tinker toys

gator

[Mike Perry]

A lot of us have pretty high rolling dogs that don't need to be told twice to go but will never break, but are loose at the line. I note in my book "Loose to the line" or "jumpy" but not a CB unless the dog makes a conscious effort to try to beat the command.

JMHO
MP

Why would you note anything at all? Seems to me you are looking for justification for later failing a dog and being able to go back to your notes for backup. You should judge what you see. No controlled break, then it's done. Why note a dog is "jumpy"? What purpose in judging is that? Sometimes judges look for crap to judge, instead of taking in and watching the dogs work.

Note to self: Do not ever run under Mikey.

Now it's done gator.......

Thread Killer Regards,

DIB

I guess me, Mark, Travis and Janet will never see this guy at the line, who ever he is. I know they keep good notes also.
To take it a step further, I apprenticed in Finished under a past National Pres. and he showed me that he keeps a "Here, HEEL" count as to how many times it takes a handler to get his dog to the line and under control at the bucket. What about that?
Judging what I see regards
MP

[MRC Dream]

Anal judging comes to mind. We got enough of those at the Grand, don't need anymore.

[goosebruce]

i write down everything that is pertaintent... and control is cumlative, from the time the leash is off to the time the leash is back on. Those notes save more dogs than they take down belive me. The side boxes have things like control, style, desire, nose, and room to put + or - symbols, I like to use those and write a note out to the side... bcause at the end of the day if a dog is on the bubble, I want enough of his performance duley noted I can remember acurately the dogs run... even though 90% of the time I do remember everything, even things that arent written down.

I can't think of any finished judges I ever felt where trying to fail dogs, either as a judge, a hunt chair, or a handler. I think lots of people want to think thats true, but I think they'd be disapointed to knw the truth. travis

[MRC Dream]

Jumpy? Excited? YOu ever write these down? What bearing does it have? He's jumpy, but no control break.....wtf does that mean? He might break, so I'll note down that the dog was jumpy.......y'all killin' me.......

[gator]

MOVE INTO THE LIGHT............IT'S YOUR FRIEND........MOVE TO THE LIGHT................

gator

[Marty N.]

I guess this is where I start having a little problem with the culture (for lack of another word) between HRC and AKC. Control is not nor should it be cumulative, if a dog is not showing proper control on the line then he is out. It is up to the judge to decide what control on the line is in that particular series, either it passed the test on control or failed.

Marty