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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:58 pm
by JaMak84
Hammer, while I applaud your vigor and persistence on this topic, I must question your inability to accept reports that contradict your stance on global warming. Calling other people idiots or stupid for not accepting your resource publications and in the same breathe getting upset about having other people disagree with your opinions is a tad hypocritical to say the least. If you can't respect others opinions you should not expect them to respect yours.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:22 pm
by cwink
Ok Hammer I took the bait and went and looked at your Ozone Watch site and read a few interesting facts..


The ozone hole is not technically a “hole” where no ozone is present, but is actually a region of exceptionally depleted ozone in the stratosphere over the Antarctic that happens at the beginning of Southern Hemisphere spring (August–October). The average concentration of ozone in the atmosphere is about 300 Dobson Units; any area where the concentration drops below 220 Dobson Units is considered part of the ozone hole.

Now I am no scientist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.. And from reading this, it is not a Hole, but a thinner layer of Ozone. Oh and take a look at the pics below. This is from your handy dandy little site. Seems there wasn't a hole in July 2006, but in Sept 2006 the hole was HUGE.. You know I think I went on vaction in my SUV that month, But all is OK in December 2006 cause there is no hole then..

July 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-07_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Aug 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-08_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Sept 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-09_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Oct 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-10_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Nov 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-11_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Dec 2006
[img]http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ozone_maps/images/climate/OZONE_D2006-12_G^348X348.LSH.JPG[/img]

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:26 pm
by pntailhntr
Wow, I didn't go into all the months like that, pretty cool how it opens and closes, want to explain that Mr Hammer?????????

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:38 pm
by JJ McGuire
Hammer wrote:Thanks for taking the bait you idiot...I should see how many more of you doffusses will take it but I cant resist the chance to slam your head back in the sand now rather than later...Go to this link to see what NASA says about the Ozone Hole:



NASA... :lol: :lol:


A failure to recognize and correct an error in a transfer of information between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in Colorado and the mission navigation team in California led to the loss of the spacecraft last week, preliminary findings by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory internal peer review indicate.
"Our inability to recognize and correct this simple error has had major implications," said Dr. Edward Stone, director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "We have underway a thorough investigation to understand this issue."


Sept. 30, 1999



You should have known there'd be trouble when those responsible for the space shuttle program were put in charge of tracking U.S. temperatures. So it shouldn't have come as a big surprise when it was revealed that NASA committed a bit of a faux pas regarding data constantly used for its shock value by the mainstream media and other global warming proponents.

Data from NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies now show that the hottest U.S. year since 1880 was 1934. 1998 dropped to second, while the third-hottest year was 1921. Indeed, four of the 10 hottest years were in the 1930s; only three were in the past decade.




History repeats!

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:26 pm
by rjohnson
[quote="Hammer"]Got another newsflash for you: CO2 saturation affects biochemcial processes in plants....Bees feed on plants, bee numbers are down 90%...Is there a correlation? Only time and science will tell but it seems plausible..../quote]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20612274/

Apparently a virus is the most likely cause of the honeybee decline.

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:38 am
by JJ McGuire
Hammer wrote:Got another newsflash for you: CO2 saturation affects biochemcial processes in plants....Bees feed on plants, bee numbers are down 90%...Is there a correlation? Only time and science will tell but it seems plausible....


rjohnson wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20612274/

Apparently a virus is the most likely cause of the honeybee decline.


You know the cause of the virus will be CO2 ... :mrgreen:

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:55 am
by rjohnson
JJ McGuire wrote:
Hammer wrote:Got another newsflash for you: CO2 saturation affects biochemcial processes in plants....Bees feed on plants, bee numbers are down 90%...Is there a correlation? Only time and science will tell but it seems plausible....


rjohnson wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20612274/

Apparently a virus is the most likely cause of the honeybee decline.


You know the cause of the virus will be CO2 ... :mrgreen:


Yeah I know. And therefore he will be right again and we'll still be inbred idiots that don't care.

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:41 pm
by Po Monkey Lounger
I was trying to stay out of this ongoing debate for a while, but the misstatements about some of the "evidence" of GW/climate change/CO2 > or whatever they choose to call it next keeps dragging me back in. :lol:

I've been studying up on this bee hysteria. The FACT of the matter is that some bee colonies in certain, limited areas of the country are down as much as 90%. That does NOT mean that the entire bee population of the US is down 90%. (The bees in MS are doing just fine). Anyone who claims this to be true is either lying to support some agenda, recklessly repeating someone else's idiocy, or does not know schit from shinola. Neither is very flattering.

And as I have pointed out before, the scientists who actually are experts re bees suspect that these limited bee colonies that have experienced such declines have been stressed due to a virus, or from new pesticides being used on fruit bearing trees and plants. I have not read a single report where a bee expert has indicated it is due to global warming or climate change.

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:23 pm
by JJ McGuire
I have no problem with bees dying. Hell, most folks don't know they are an invasive species like nutria ...

Honeybees themselves aren't native to North America. They were brought over from Europe by settlers in the 17th century, originally for their honey, the main sweetener available to the settlers, and for their wax, which was used in candles.


not only are they "Undocumented Americans" but they are bing exploited as well!

But it soon became apparent the bees were invaluable for agriculture and could work together with man because bee colonies -- intricate insect societies centered on a single queen -- could be managed by putting them in movable boxes.


And Sen. Barbara Boxer want to spend $89 million over five years for more research to help bees!

"California's almond crop alone is worth $2 billion per year and requires nearly one-half of all the honeybees in the country," Boxer said in introducing her bill recently. "The future of that crop and other important crops such as avocados, apples, berries and soybeans is in jeopardy if there aren't enough bees to pollinate them for harvest."


Yet beekeepes from the city by the gay are saying...

"Most beekeepers in San Francisco and the Bay Area are doing reasonably well," said Sinton, president of the San Francisco Beekeepers Association.


When will this madness stop!

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:41 am
by pntailhntr
The bees around here ARE dying at an astronomical pace. It sounds like you don't care about the bees. You do realize, bees are responsible for almost all polination of trees like Apple, Peach, etc, and plants such as COTTON and SOYBEANS!!! a HUGE crop staple in the Delta!!!

As for global warming being the sole reason for the decline in Bees, I don't really think so, In fact more than anything, it is the spraying of chemicals on these plants while bees are in the process of polinating that is killing so many of them off.

BUT, my point is, bees are VERY important!!! Don't think they aren't just because they sting you!!

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:01 pm
by Hammer
Let me get this straight...Since you say the "hole" in the Ozone layer is not technically a complete "hole" since it does not extend all the way through the Ozone layer or because the amount of ozone depletion is higher at certain times than at others that makes the SCIENTIFIC FACT that chlorine depletes the Ozone Layer a hoax? That we dont need to worry about the effect of chlorine on the ozone since the depletion is not as bad as it could be?

You also ignore the obvious that the REASON the hole has not get worse and in fact is gettign better is due to international treaties bannign the manufacture and use of ChFCs, the chlorine compounds that cause Ozone depletion...

Let me get this down to your level:

If you put a screw in a 2"x4" but dont screw it all the way through, when you back the screw out, what do you call the hole that is left in the board? A depletion of wood or a hole? This is the exact same argument you are attempting to make.

Let me get this further straight...If 1934 were the hottest year on record, as you say it was, that means that the current melting of glaciers worldwide, the delay in refreezing of Arctic sea ice, etc is meaningless. Not to mention the NAS, the Nobel Committee, the Supreme Court and all the other leading institutions I have referenced all of whom say that CO2 saturation is causing GW is causing big problems....

You naysayers are IDIOTS because you ignore the advice and counsel of men and women whom are far smarter, far more accomplished, far more knowledgable, far more educated about this issue than you are. If nothing else convinced you, the Supreme Court ruling should have. And hasnt it occurred to you that if GW were a hoax, there would be lawsuits stopping the 6 Western States and 10 Eastern States from moving forward with their GHG reductiion programs? Do you really think the CEO of EXXON would acknowledge GW as REAL if it were a HOAX?

Only IDIOTS would paint themselves into the corner yall have painted yourselves into. So yeah, I stand by my statement but lets take it a step further. In the last twenty or so years, you- as HUNTERS- have ACCEPTED (either actively or tacitly) the following:

1- WIDESPREAD BAITING (DEER & TURKEYS)
2- SPINNERS (DUCKS)
3- HIGH TECH CAMERAS (DEER)
4- ELECTRONIC CALLS (DEER)
5- HIGH FENCES (DEER)

I cant wait to hear your "spin" on how Teddy Roosevelt and Aldo Leopold would have supported the above. Even if you dont do these things yourselves, you are not actively fighting them so that makes you guilty as charged.

Of course you guys arent CONSERVATIONISTS. Of course you deny the REALITY of the biggest ENVIRONMENTAL issue in modern history. Of course you will wind up IRRELEVANT on the side of the highway as the ANTIS convince an ever larger percentage of our NON HUNTING SOCIETY that hunters- based on our own actions- talk a good game about CONSERVATION, FAIR CHASE, ETHICS, etc but the talk is nothing but hot air....

Jack N. said it well in A FEW GOOD MEN- You dont want to know the truth because you cant handle the truth. The truth is this: Look in the mirror and you will see the enemy. But dont take my word for it, go to http://www.madduck.org and see what Howard Elfman had to say about it in June of this year...

Incidentally, you will get another chance to BETRAY the Lord's Creation when the Corps of Engineers tries to move forward with its Yazoo Pumps Project in the coming months and when the Lefleur Lakes Project moves forward some time after that. You will have your usual rationalizations about the "economy" and "jobs" and "economic development" and all the other crapola programmed into our society to cover up the obvious which is stated well in the Good Book:

MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.

Yall are hunters. You are supposed to be conservationists. You are supposed to be defenders of fish and wildlife and their habitat. The truth hurts and the truth is that you are sellouts to the post modernist material world that has put mankind and the natural world in harm's way.

You dont see it yet but- if you live long enough- you will and perhaps then you will take heed of my words.

Or maybe you will just expel the famous words of Colonel Kurtz in The Heart of Darkness when he said, "Oh, the Horror. The Horror." and in your last breaths realize the error of your ways.

HAMMER

NOTE ON TRAIL CAMS: Fabulous tool for wildlife managers but despicable for hunters when used to pattern deer. Gives entirely technological, unfair advantage ot the hunter in terms of knowing when and where to be at an exact spot.

NOTE ON SPINNERS: I had 2 of them the last year that I had my outfitting business (2000). I sold them with the business and havent owned one since and I will never own another one.

Incidentally, in response to depleted waterfowl resources, I not only sold my outfitting business but have voluntarily cut my duck days from 50-60 days per year to less than 20. Since I am a master duck hunter and kill limits on virtually all my hunts, that is a net savings of hundreds of ducks annually. Personal conservation/personal accountability/personal responsibility. I put my money and my actions where my mouth is.

NOTE ON BAITING: I am vehemently opposed - on the public record- to baiting of any and all wildlife.

NOTE ON HIGH FENCES: I am vehemently opposed - on the public record-to high fences.

NOTE ON ELECTRONIC CALLS: I am vehemently opposed - not on the public record yet but it will be soon- to electronic calls.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:33 pm
by JMCMILLIN
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:53 pm
by cwink
Hammer wrote:Let me get this straight...Since you say the "hole" in the Ozone layer is not technically a complete "hole" since it does not extend all the way through the Ozone layer or because the amount of ozone depletion is higher at certain times than at others that makes the SCIENTIFIC FACT that chlorine depletes the Ozone Layer a hoax? That we dont need to worry about the effect of chlorine on the ozone since the depletion is not as bad as it could be?



No, your not paying attention.. Your nifty little NASA shows that the "Hole" appears and then disappears in the span of a couple of months. That simply means that there is a lesser concentration of ozone at the South Pole peridically, not continuously as the Media Hype would like you to believe. Obviously from these pictures the Ozone "Hole" has the ability to correct itself.

And until you stop planting food plots (which is baiting and patterning deer), break out your spear and start chunking it at deer your not any better than any other law abiding hunter..

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:13 pm
by Hammer
What part about the ban on ChFCs dont you understand?

Until the Ozone Hole was discovered there were no bans and the Ozone Hole was getting worse, far worse....After the treaties banned these substances, the Ozone Hole has gotten better, far better...Cause and effect...Science...Simple yet you and your fellow naysayers would make it hard in your continuing efforts to discredit the science of global warming but let me ask you this:

WHY STOP THERE? Why not discredit the science that shows chlosterol causes heart disease? Tobacco additives cause lung disease? Why not deny the science behind statistics like 1 out of 166 American children are autistic? 1 in 8 American women will HAVE breast cancer? For that matter, I bet you saw a Woodland Elk just the other day, didnt you? And what about Man's walk on the moon? TV show from Arizona wasnt it?

Your food plot/spear argument is similarily flawed...Although hunting food plots with a rifle is not as pure a form of hunting as big woods spear huntign would be it is infinitely more pure than baited/fenced/high tech killing so many of you have accepted....

Incidentally, my biggest deer still comes from public land with an open sights (albeit) inline muzzleloader....I hope that changes this year with a bow kill.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:20 pm
by cwink
But your still not getting my point. Look at the pics above that I posted. How do you explain that fact that there is no hole in July 2006, then it opens up and closes again by the time Dec 2006 rolls around. You must be a Politician, cause you won't answer the question..

As far as the baiting topic.. I grew up hunting in South Tx and we hunted over feeders. Down there, we would have given our best gun to hunt over food plots with wheat, oats and glover. So to me. Food plots are bait, corn is bait anything that does not grow natuarlly is bait.