Deep Woods wrote:Have you ever read about Judas Iscariot. His awful end is a solemn warning against avarice, hypocrisy, and all unfaithfulness.
Where is Judas ever said to be a Christian, in faith, and then fallen out of faith? It seems to me that the Apostle John is pretty clear that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19. Earlier in the same chapter John explains that not as a prerequisite for belief in Jesus, but instead as proof of a belief in Jesus, "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments." - 1 John 2:3. Therefore, Jesus says, when speaking to the apostles, "But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:64,65, and later in John 6:70, in response to Peter, "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.'” John is clear that if Judas had been saved, he would not have "gone out from them." And Jesus is pretty clear that Judas did not believe, even early on in Jesus' ministry. He was never a believer. He was never saved.
Deep Woods wrote:The far greater part of that very people whom he had once saved.
1 Corinthians 10 tells us that, as you say, God was not pleased with most of the Israelites that he brought up out of Egypt. I do not disagree with that. They died in the desert because of sin. But, again, where does the Bible speak of them in a positive light? Where are they said to have been given eternal salvation prior to their fall? Their being brought up out of Egypt is not a sign of eternal salvation being given to them. It is a temporal, physical blessing, nothing more. You would never go to a man who just walked out of a burning building and say to him, "Look how God just gave you eternal life by bringing you out of this building! Be careful not to lose your salvation!" No, nobody talks like that. Instead, just as the Old Testament does time and again, you would tell that man, "Look how God has saved you from death! He has given you a second chance to repent and turn to him!"
And in the Old Testament, God chose to work through an ethnic people group, Israel. This is often misunderstood, which it seems you have, to mean that all of Israel was therefore saved simply on the basis of them being Israelites. I believe this is not what the Bible teaches at all, and the verse you cited from Jude is a perfect and clear example of this. That verse is written to a group of believers into which false teachers had come. You can see that in the preceding verse (4) where Jude says that certain ungodly people have crept into their assembly. He parallels the fate of those unbelievers who have crept into the church with the fate of those unbelievers who perished in the wilderness. He is clearly stating that not all those who came up out of Egypt believed in Yahweh. This is not a statement of anyone falling from a state of grace, but merely an acknowledgment that most of them were not in a "state of grace" to begin with. He is telling them to take heart, that one day God will judge the ungodly and justice will be served. Jesus very clearly teaches this same idea in Matthew 13 with a parable, saying, "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, 'Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” As you have said, we would be very foolish to believe that every single person filling the pews of our churches is actually a Christian. Unfortunately, we can't always know who those unrepentant amongst us are. In fact, Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that some of the unrepentant don't even know they are lost.
Deep Woods wrote:this clearly shows they were in a state of grace
How exactly do you define "grace"? If you mean that they were in God's favor and fell from that, then I agree. But you can not make the parallel between sinless angels and sinful humans. We are not in God's favor anymore. The only people you can compare angels to would be pre-fall Adam and Christ. If you and I had never sinned, then we would be like the angels who get to stay in heaven based on their own merits, on their own sinlessness. But we are sinners. Therefore we have already fallen from grace. That's Genesis 3. Since that has already happened, we are in need of grace, meaning we need, "unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification," which is how Webster defines grace. Webster, though again not worried with theology, amazingly hits the nail on the head when he said that grace is: 1. unmerited and 2. given (to) humans. Grace is not something we earn, it's something we are given (Eph. 2:8,9). And it is not something that is offered to angels. Once the angels sinned, they were condemned. No second chances. No atoning death for them. No chance for repentance. Jesus did not die for angels, which I addressed in an earlier post.
Deep Woods wrote:And you can claim eternal security,…….humans today are no better than those of Israel, or the fallen angels. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are much better than Israel and not even in the same league with the fallen angels.
Jeremiah 31 tells us, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
We have a new and better covenant. Before Jesus, the Jews had the law. The law condemned. It was not life giving. They could only know God from a distance. Their sins had only been passed over, not forgiven. Today we have Jesus. Grace forgives. Jesus came that we may have life and have it to the full. Jesus sent his Spirit to dwell in us. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. That's why Jesus spoke of Abraham rejoicing at seeing his day. That's why Paul said that before Jesus, the gospel was a mystery. We have many advantages that Israel did not.
And the fallen angels have no chance! You yourself have quoted the scriptures that tell of how God has not given the angels a chance to repent. The Gospel is something that the angels long to look into. It is not for them, it is for us. We are the ones he came to redeem. We are the only ones that carry the image of God. And one day, we humans that have believed in Jesus will actually sit in judgment of the angels. I believe all those facts do, actually, give us many more advantages.
Again I ask, what am I missing here? Where do you see the fallen angels as having a chance to repent? Where do you see universal salvation for all of Israel? Where do you see Lot's wife being called righteous? I am open to being corrected if I am misreading these texts. But I need you to show me, convincingly, where I am interpreting these things poorly. None of these texts seem to discredit the idea that all those that genuinely believe will be kept in faith and obedience by the power of God himself.