a topic of discussion......

[chance]

I have to differ concerning HRC allowing either visible winger stations or judging accordingly. Neither are officially condoned by HRC/UKC.

Every effort should be made to hide winger stations. Been the reccommendation as long as I have been a member of HRC.
Judging accordingly is officially addressed in the new judges/handlers seminar. The reccommendation is to change the test rather than "judge accordingly".

[Doc & Nash]

remind me when i get time to talk about 'judge accordingly' and trey's use of adjusting the area of fall.... thats needs clarification. travis

Let me expand, I do not like it when I hear it as a handler and I despise to the utmost degree being put in a situation where the grounds are not sufficient and there is not other way around making the test suitable than having to "judge accordingly" IMO, it is not fair to the dog, and it is not fair to the handler, and it is not fair to the standard set forth by the HRC. Judging accordingly only dilutes the standard, again IMO

[cdwyer]

If a significant number of finished dogs are handling on a go bird, at finished distances, I would suspect either test grounds that are off the chart, or ye olde "hen thrown low and parallel/into a shaded treeline" or other avoidable situation. Dogs can't mark what they can't see. If they CAN see a go bird, I would not expect a lot of dogs in finished/master to handle on it, Grand, Master National, Conehead, No Cone, Steel Cage Match, Don't Matter. Simply because it has the least memory erosion. If they do handle on the go bird, I figure they are gonna be toast on the memory birds.

There are situations where the go bird can be as difficult as either of the mempry birds. Ive seen it more often in Master but a perfect example of a kick butt go bird was in the purina water test. The bird splashed in an open pocket of water which could be seen from the line. There was so much inbetween that a lot of dogs got lost. Probably 8-10 were picked up on that bird in our flight. It was about an 86 yrd. mark if I remember right. I agree that it requires the least amount of memory. I have been thinking about a comment Clark made about which bird in a triple the dog gets the best picture of as the birds are going down. You would think its the go bird? Ive been thinking, you get a dog that has run 300-500 points worth of finished tests, hes seen a lot of triples. Even if you have a rock steady dog that marks well, he knows that after bird two, he is about to be released so a lot of other things start moving through his mind as he moves to the last bird. Do they tend to get lazy about the go birds? Its not an issue until you step up to the Grand level and high end master tests. With Trey I have to mix things up for these very reasons. I throw him quite a few quads or a wipe out bird in a big triple set up. He knows the mechanics, he has it down so pat that on the honor I have to tell him to "mark" otherwise when a working dog comes to the line, hell get up and head to the truck! Ive had to alllow him to pick up a mark fairly regularly on an honor to break up that thought process.

[SkippyJ]

piss i.e. urinate, micturate, break out the one eyed wonder dog, free willy, let the loggerhead breath.................................in other words, break out the weiner (skippyj, yes, you can squat) and piss on em

I say piss on Gator........

Now back to the thread.

[Chevalier]

When a dog has to be handled to a mark, generally one of two things have happened;

1) Handler error
2) The dog miss marked the bird or is not a good marker

Marking is of primary importance. On a duck hunt, who wants to handle on marks? Not me!

[goosebruce]

On a duck hunt.....

Really is handling on a mark a big deal on a duck hunt? Not compared to dogs that creep into the blast cone, dogs that break, or really the worst thing, dogs that make noise. Sure it's nice to be able to reload and get a dip and let fido do his thing... but honestly, I'll take a quiet still dog to hunt with even if it does have to handle (assuming it handles well).

But thats off the topic at hand isn't it. We're talking about TESTING hunting dogs. And if we are going to test as part of some kind of worthiness about the dog (training and genetically) then we got to have guidelines and standards.

Trey's comment about 'adjusting the area of the fall'....

the (percieved and judged) area of the fall does get adjusted... delays, order thrown, wind condtions, dragback, all sorts of things should make you look at your areas of the fall and adjust it. Sometimes you run dogs and see something you didn't... and you'll adjust again. Things that shouldnt adjust it... the speed of the dogs (fast dogs seem to be given more leeway in covering the countryside), the handlers, or dorked up mechaincs.

Judge accordingly... ya'll pretty much wrapped it up. Its generally says something went wrong, so we're gonna just pretend what we got now is good enough and probably give something away. Sometimes its all you can do, you gotta weigh the odds INSTANTLY and roll from there. And sometimes, ya see someone make a call, and then a little while later, make a different call.... boy that seems to jack people up. But if someone had the benefit of a few moments and hindsight to work something out, would making the same misteak again be fairer than doing something else? People are very hung up on 'same test as the other dogs' when in reality no where judging to a standard is that written, nor should it be. Its just something everyone hopes for, works for, and is happy when it happens. Sometimes the benefit of stopping a test and rerunning it, is NOT worth the problems it may cause. But that needs to be dog problems, not just because you don't want to take the time and effort to do it. Judges have a lot to do with it, but marshalls and hunt committees do to. The right equipement, access to pick up dogs, some physical help when things are going south.... don't forget we're all in it together. travis

[LastFrontierLabs]

I definitely don't have enough experience to answer this question, but if marks test marking and memory and the majority of dogs in a test are handling on the marks, then the dogs have not been tested.

Secondly, if the test dog can't even come close to doing the test, it should be adjusted or else get an appropriate test dog... The test dog will tell you if the test is dorked up...

[Chevalier]

On a duck hunt.....

Really is handling on a mark a big deal on a duck hunt? Not compared to dogs that creep into the blast cone, dogs that break, or really the worst thing, dogs that make noise. Sure it's nice to be able to reload and get a dip and let fido do his thing... but honestly, I'll take a quiet still dog to hunt with even if it does have to handle (assuming it handles well).

But thats off the topic at hand isn't it. We're talking about TESTING hunting dogs. And if we are going to test as part of some kind of worthiness about the dog (training and genetically) then we got to have guidelines and standards.

Trey's comment about 'adjusting the area of the fall'....

the (percieved and judged) area of the fall does get adjusted... delays, order thrown, wind condtions, dragback, all sorts of things should make you look at your areas of the fall and adjust it. Sometimes you run dogs and see something you didn't... and you'll adjust again. Things that shouldnt adjust it... the speed of the dogs (fast dogs seem to be given more leeway in covering the countryside), the handlers, or dorked up mechaincs.

Judge accordingly... ya'll pretty much wrapped it up. Its generally says something went wrong, so we're gonna just pretend what we got now is good enough and probably give something away. Sometimes its all you can do, you gotta weigh the odds INSTANTLY and roll from there. And sometimes, ya see someone make a call, and then a little while later, make a different call.... boy that seems to jack people up. But if someone had the benefit of a few moments and hindsight to work something out, would making the same misteak again be fairer than doing something else? People are very hung up on 'same test as the other dogs' when in reality no where judging to a standard is that written, nor should it be. Its just something everyone hopes for, works for, and is happy when it happens. Sometimes the benefit of stopping a test and rerunning it, is NOT worth the problems it may cause. But that needs to be dog problems, not just because you don't want to take the time and effort to do it. Judges have a lot to do with it, but marshalls and hunt committees do to. The right equipement, access to pick up dogs, some physical help when things are going south.... don't forget we're all in it together. travis

I wouldn't put up with an unsteady or noisey dog, not sure how that enters the equation here on handling on marks. Marks at HT at the Master or Finished level are dead ducks and no adjustment is made because the duck isn't moving. Dogs are either good markers are they are not, that is unless the handler is doing someting that would distract the dog from marking the bird. Marking and hunting up the bird is the dog's job. If you have to handle on marks, then the dog is NOT doing its job.

Hunting ducks in an area where the duck may float off to a different area is totally different. But, in HT's one won't see that.

Marking is of primary importance no matter if one is hunting or playing dog games.

[cdwyer]

Marks at HT at the Master or Finished level are dead ducks and no adjustment is made because the duck isn't moving. Dogs are either good markers are they are not, that is unless the handler is doing someting that would distract the dog from marking the bird. Marking and hunting up the bird is the dog's job. If you have to handle on marks, then the dog is NOT doing its job.

The mechanics of the test could be such that it distracts from the dogs ability to mark? If you set up a test where the marks are shot 180 degrees apart, you are encouraging your dog to be un-steady. He is going to physicaly have to move his body in order to see the falls. This is a situation where a dog is not given the ability to properly mark birds due to the amount of movement required regardless of the caliber of marker. I understand a dog is suppose to be able to swing with the gun amd mark off it but A set up can be done to test for marking and the dogs ability to swing and mark off a gun without physical having to reposition itself.

[GulfCoast]

Marks at HT at the Master or Finished level are dead ducks and no adjustment is made because the duck isn't moving.

Hunting ducks in an area where the duck may float off to a different area is totally different. But, in HT's one won't see that.

Marking is of primary importance no matter if one is hunting or playing dog games.

AOF's get "ajusted" all the time in HT's out of necessity. Is there anyone here who has run any AKC tests and NOT seen a nicked-but-frisky flyer hit the ground and start running for BFE like chariots of fire? Or a flyer that is missed on the first several shots and sails landing 50 yards or more past the area in which the other flyers fell? I would submit that in no way did either of those dogs get the same AOF as the others.

[goosebruce]

Test dog is for showing mechanics of the test, period. A set up dog approaite for the level is a much more valuable, and RARE tool.

If dogs are handling on marks maybe its because they where tested, and failed the test. Maybe its because it wasn't an approiate test, but maybe dogs just weren't up to the challenge.

My comments about marking vrs distracting dogs was because someone used the 'on a duck hunt'. And dogs with control issues are much more of a hindrence on a hunt that dogs that must be handled on marks at times. travis

[LastFrontierLabs]

If a test dog is is only for showing the mechanics of the test, then why can't ANY dog be used? You are not allowed to use a Finished Dog to show the mechanics of a Started or Seasoned test.

We have used set up dogs up here and would agree to their value, but I think if the test dog has serious problems with the test, the test should be "fixed".

[GulfCoast]

Don't claim to be a pro, have talent, or even be good at this stuff. But I have mixed thoughts on the "scrap it if the test dog can't do it" line of thought.

Example: Me and Jason (Lil Hank) and Beamer and Protrainer and some others I am probably forgetting ran a Master test a few months ago, where the first series "test dog" was QAA, MH and I am virtually positive won an Am a couple weeks later. Test dog handled on 2 of the 3 birds (and I mean HAN-DULED) and was basically picked up on a 70 yard blind. Virtually every dog in the flight finished that series and came back to the second, other than a couple that broke. The difference: The test dog handler had never seen, much less handled the test dog. And the test dog's handler that morning was Ed Thibideau, who has a record that ain't too shabby. Sometimes if the test dog can't do it, the test needs a tweak. But it isn't always the test that makes a test dog foul it up.

(And since I always say you should not throw judges under the bus, I will refrain from comment on the second series of that test. )

[goosebruce]

how can a judge know if the dog someone brings to the line is capable of doing the test? What if a test dog breaks, do we blame the test? I prefer to bring a set up dog with me, that I know well, suitable for the level being tested. I prefer not to run one of my dogs for test dog. Just because my dog can do my test, means nothing... my dogs do my tests everyday, I pay money for them to do someone elses tests. But if a litmus test is the test dog must do the test, aren't we saying if you got good dogs you can set up tougher tests? No, the test dog is to show mechanics and thats it. If you need a test dog to justify your test, you've got issues with your test. Test dog of the level being tested is to keep people from crying over it, to keep over zealous judges from saying test dog did it, to keep everything as even keeled as can be. It only makes common sense, but often times common sense needs to be spelled out. Saying that just because a test dog didn't do the test it should be scrapped, makes little sense.
Besides, lets define, do the test... if a test dog handles on a mark, should we scrap the test? The test dog doesn't define the standard, the rule book , and the dogs running the test do.

Personally, as a handler and as a judge, i would rather not SEE a test dog smack a test. Id rather see them struggle some with the pitfalls of the test. What do you see from a 1500 point dog lining a blind and pinning the marks? Nothing, except intimdiating inexpereince handlers that might see it and expect that. I want to see the hunts, the hazards of the blinds, how a dog runs a test. Where a dog can get in trouble, and how hard it is to get back out.

what i REALLY hate to see is a test dog that isn't cold. The dog that picked up the 'key mark' 14x the day before to make sure it was where it was supposed to be running as test dog. I dont know its done purposely often (in hrc at least), but it does seem to be the exact wrong thing to me to do. I would rather run an experienced dog in contention than a dog that has run part or the whole test the day before.

often times, the test dog is a judges dog with mucho expereince and running their daddies type set ups... and then the first ones to line up come up with big dogs. And your middle of the flight, before a sure nuff 'finished' dog comes to the line. Dont care who you are, or how objective you want to be, after seeing a test nailed time and again, your mindset changes about it, and the very dogs a standard is to apply for, are at risk for it no longer being the case. travis

[cdwyer]

Is there anyone here who has run any AKC tests and NOT seen a nicked-but-frisky flyer hit the ground and start running for BFE like chariots of fire?

There is no way to have a defined area of the fall with a flyer, in instances where a flyer is used you have to have that bird in such a place that the aof can be much larger and can not overlap with the aof of one of the other controlled birds. If the bird can been seen from the line moving away from the fall area, a no bird should be call, especially if it is one of the memory birds.