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Justin's being an ass today.......please ignore him.

This is JMO from a completely novice trainer.....

Training - try to set up your blinds so the dog has to fight the factors. I like to isolate one factor and try to work on it with a three peat blind, like a ditch crossing, old scent, cover, clipping a station, slots & keyholes, hills, etc. Water complicates things, so I try to isolate the concept I'm trying to teach even more. For example, staying off points, crossing points, thin angle re-entries and exits, across logs and brush, down the shore with a strong crosswind. Take advantage of what Mother Nature throws your way (especially strong winds and poor weather) and work on it with a LITERAL standard.

The difficult thing I've found myself doing is jumping all over the place. You have to try and teach your dog by building both marking and blind concepts....so you should try to stay with a particular theme to isolate that skill and entrench it. This applies to both marks and blinds. I also believe that is the case with OB, and a dog never suffers from a good, solid basic OB session at least once a week.

For an advanced dog, I would define "basic" OB as sit, come, heel, down, place, and especially push/pull drills (your type of push/pull may vary depending on whether you run HRC or AKC, tests or trials). Line mechanics are SO important, I work on them almost every day...especially subtle head movements for trials. It's not too hard to do and there's no excuse for not doing basic OB this time of year. We 9 to 5ers might run out of daylight, so we can't run a big marking or blind set-up everyday, but we can find a few minutes to work on basics.

Trials/tests - I will be the first to say my handling skills have failed more than my dog(s). Each failure has reminded me of either something I need to train on, a new handler skill or something I failed to recognize as a handler. I really like watching accomplished trainers run so I can try to pick up on what their doing.

As to testing; I try to come out of the holding blind and approach the line in a manner that the dog will require the least amount of pushing/pulling. This is easier said than done. Usually I try to line the dog up for the go or money bird and let them get a real good look then point out the other guns in the proper order. Obviously, you can't do this in a test!!! But you can approach the line, especially in a walk-up, so your dog is positioned in the most advantageous manner possible. Your heel work should be solid.

In every trial or test, for both marks and blinds, I try to watch at least a few dogs run to pick a test apart for what I perceive to be the worst factors. This is something you simply learn by doing and watching. And I try to run a blind within the corridor I imagine the judges want (attacking the blind) and MOMENTUM cast.

For blind mechanics, I cue the dog to a blind with "dead bird" and try find something about 8 feet ahead of the dog, like a leaf or stick perfectly on-line to the bird. When the dog is lined up with proper spine, I then make sure the eyes are lined up on the leaf and cue "good" to further lock dog in, drop hand to affirm and kick the dog off.


Anyway, like a I said, some musings from a novice....

Good post, CS.

I guess this is a semantics question, but I have always wondered what is the difference between how folks refer to a "keyhole" and a "slot." I look at everything as just a "slot" since a hole in a hedge to me looks like a "slot" just like the space between 2 trees. Maybe I am underthinking this.

GulfCoast wrote:Good post, CS.

I guess this is a semantics question, but I have always wondered what is the difference between how folks refer to a "keyhole" and a "slot." I look at everything as just a "slot" since a hole in a hedge to me looks like a "slot" just like the space between 2 trees. Maybe I am underthinking this.

I think of "slots" as between gun stations and "keyholes" as natural features, like between two trees or a gap in a hedge

SIGH.....

Damn_It_Boy wrote:Justin's being an !@# today.......please ignore him.

honest injun, i'm not....it's just the way i look at things. ignoring me shouldn't be a problem for most on here.....i mean, i don't go home and jerk off thinking about the next big hunt test, so that pretty much equates me to a nobody so far as this stuff goes......yet, i'll digress.

the original question posted by B3 was:

Anyone want to share some tips on how you approach a blind retrieve in training and/or in a test?

well, i answered the question.......i run the damn blind. seriously, that's what i do, i get the dog off the truck, let him air, line him up and run the blind.

is there a difference in running a blind in training vs. testing.....yep.

this leads me to this....wouldn't it be better to ask the forum (and ourselves personally) how we think a dog LEARNS to run blinds? how does that happen, that's what i want to know? now, bill wasn't getting the answers he was looking for, so he's gonna try to put me and trapper under the bus.....make a big ole example out of us i guess.

so, i'll direct this part of my post to the question asked of me:

So Gator.........how did you run them fresh out of TT? Did you just take young trapper out to a big pond with some scented points and a 30 mph wind and run 300 yd down the shores. Just run the blind ?!?!?

no, and any idiot knows that.......but, we did start RUNNING BLINDS, you can bet on that. i personally think that too often we (as a group of trainers in general) get all wound up over the BIG stuff....just look at the example presented me - 300 yd blind, 30 yd cross wind........dude, i don't train like that very often w/ my 3 and 8 yr olds NOW, much less out of TT.......

so.....how do dogs learn, how do we learn......how do we recognize the need to handle, correct, praise?????? RUN SOME FRICKIN BLINDS.

you start w/ small building blocks: OB, FF, T/TT, PB's, simple cold blinds.....come, stop, change direction. all wrapped up in a neat little package we call training a dog with the end results directed at a COLD BLIND STANDARD and a blind running machine.

so, then we move on the the inevitable questions like "well, how do you handle ____"........who the hell except YOU running YOUR DOG can tell you that? get through running a blind in front of a group (maybe one you have trouble w/) and ask the group what you should have done.....you got 5 folks watching, you'll get 5 different answers......

so, how do i "handle" a scallop on a cross wind blind???? interesting and very much fresh on my mind. monday we set up 3 blinds, each getting into the wind more, and chipping a bit of water...how did i handle it??? i HANDLED THE DOG. i didn't correct. i simply stopped and recasted....after 2 casts on the first blind, trapper figured out what i wanted and shouldered wind on the next 2.

why didn't i correct after that first whistle, that's not what the book says?????? i didn't for any number of reasons, but most importantly b/c I DIDN'T THINK it was the right thing to do.

i expect a stop (or come) and a CHANGE in direction on a casts....that's about it.

how do i "handle" a blind??????????????

changes every blind and is different for each dog.....

so, i can't really answer "how i handle ___ situation">............

but, i can tell you, i do RUN SOME FRICKING BLINDS quite often...

my 2 cents, mileage varies, gator

waterbug wrote:

B3 wrote:In training you don't give overs. You would give the literal cast. If you want them to learn to fight factors like crosswind you do literal casts- save the overs for a test if you need to get out of trouble.

Bill

What do you do when the dog refuses to take your literal cast and scallops back and fades with the wind. How do you teach the dog to take the cast directly into a strong crosswind before going to nicks on the collar for cast refusals.

Use attrition as much as possible in teaching a dog to cast into the wind. For example you stop your dog and give him a literal left angle back into the wind but he take a hard left back and scallops. Stop the dog and bring him back to the same spot he made the discision to take the left back. You may stop the dog and say NO HERE to get him to come back to that spot. This lets the dog know he didn't not take the desired cast. Recast the dog with the same cast. If he does the same thing then recall him again. You make do this 3 times or more. If the dog doesn't give you the desired response after the 3rd or 4th attempt then correct them for lack of effort.

Now i'm the type that will get the dog to take that cast into the wind and then stop them and make then repeat the cast several times so i know they have gotten the picture. When running a blind that is teaching a dog to take a cast into the wind or any factor your working on making progress to the blind is irrelivant. The only thing to focus on is... Have you gotten your dog to consistanly take the cast into or out of the factor.

Hi. I have read the posts and have gotten some good ideas for my dogs. I would have to agree with some of the thoughts regarding my dogs. I have two BLM's one 3yo and one 5yo. The five year old got his MHR though NAHRA last March.

The blind is only 100yds if the dog blasts straight for the blind he will easily get there in less than 9 seconds if you have fast dogs like I do. I generally like to break up the line in three sections and incorporate a concept in one of the sections. A lot of repetition until dog gets it right. Then I add another small section to that one and build a memory blind that he can practice under diffferent wind and weather conditions. I will add more two to four more lines from the same starting points. I will have about 4 (3 to 5 leg) land and 4 (3 to 5 leg) water memory blinds that fido knows how to run before I think that he is proficient for moving on to cold blinds. If Fido starts to pop, I let him run the full length of the blind to keep his momentum on the lines.

What I have done is teach the dog concepts (ie. swimming up wind) in mini patterns about 20 to 30 yds at first. I get better control as a trainer with the mini patterns...especially eliminating long loopy stops and demanding sharp sits. Dog is required to stop, turn to face me quickly and stare at me for at least the count of ten. I do not allow auto casting. This count of ten also allows the dog to settle down a bit. And also he might be in a position to wind the bird. In the water, I will demand that my dog tread water for at least eight seconds while he is staring at me.

I also teach the dog to jump logs, angle roads, angle ditches, fight currents, winds, hill sides, planted scent, crash tules, and bushes, stay away from points, land on points, swim channels, etc. I incorporate a lot of these concepts in the mini blinds then combining/lengthening by adding more mini patterns out to around 100 yds, which when you break it up it three sections, it really is not that big a deal.

Stopping:: This was a big buggaboo with me. I think it was D.L. Walters that said that the whistle had to "chill" the dog. I used to tolerate long loopy sits. But now I do not need to. Shortening the patterns and runs gives me much more control and the dogs do not tire as rapidly. As I said, I require a lot of repetition. I also make the fido stop on a come in whist,e. He stops straight and fast. He realizes that I have bumpers in line with his coming in and if he stops fast enough, he will land right on his beloved dummy or bird. Same concept going out. Some where along his line, I have lightly burried a bird or a bumper. If he stops quickly, I let him fetch it. If he blows past it because he does not stop quickly enough, then I get to pick up the bird/bumper and show it off to him. It seems to make him want to stop right on the spot. I also incorporate, Sit or Whistle/ nick/ Sit in the some heeling patterns to get him conditioned for the sit. As for whisltes, I use the Gonia Special seems good enough for 100yds. I've used the Orange Competition, Fox Forty, and Breen Monster. They all work OK. Preference I think for 100 yds.

Lining:: We practice OB adnauseum. Hardest part is to get my dogs to calm down. Repetition helps. Heeling on leash is important practice. The leash keeps the dog from gettting sloppy and affords good timing and contol of corrredtions. Exercises are one-step heel, forward and back, left and right. Wagon Wheel. and Push pull. and "Haw and Gee" ie. look left, look right. Figure eights and automatic sits.

Casting:: I teach my dogs a straight back left and right, and a J back left and right. And left and right over. a come in, and a come in angle left and right. Again, repetition on small patterns.

Yeah, I watch test dog and other dogs to surmise the difficulties of the blind. My philosohy is survival....that is don't get into trouble. If the judges want a staight line, I try to give it to them. I am not a "tight" handler, I give my dogs a widish corridor to work with. I try to keep us out of trouble.

Question for the hunt testers, since I don't run HT, well at least not in the last two years. I know HT blinds are about 100 - 150 yards or so. So, in training wouldn't you want to run blinds much futher say 200+ to get the dog thinking, I need to keep going to get that bird?

rboudet wrote:Question for the hunt testers, since I don't run HT, well at least not in the last two years. I know HT blinds are about 100 - 150 yards or so. So, in training wouldn't you want to run blinds much futher say 200+ to get the dog thinking, I need to keep going to get that bird?

i find myself doing both.

long bird blinds to short birds blinds are run maybe 4-5 to 1. the short bird blinds we typically run are generally set up in such a fashion as to run AT something such as a tree. after running long blinds, this will typically booger a dog up due to flaring the obstacle.......which, again, tends to get them "thinking".

i do tend to fall in line w/ the thought process, "if they can do the ___ yd blind, they can do the shorter ones" but couple that w/ a good dose of short bird blinds to balance the equation somewhat.

-gator

It all depends on the dog if he or she is a seasoned dog or finished.With a seasoned i start abour 40 yards and work my way out to 80 then around 150 to give him the drive.Always the wind to our back running with the wind.Finished i add a old fall water and suction the harder the better.

rboudet wrote:Question for the hunt testers, since I don't run HT, well at least not in the last two years. I know HT blinds are about 100 - 150 yards or so. So, in training wouldn't you want to run blinds much futher say 200+ to get the dog thinking, I need to keep going to get that bird?

You need a mixture of short and long blinds. I know that most people say if your dog can run a 300 yard blind with factors than he can run a 60 yard blind with factors. Well i agree and disagree with that. If your dog can handle cleanly at long distances he will handle cleanly at short distances. But just as Gator said if you run all long blinds then your dog always wants to go long and can have trouble with short blinds. I've seen many of dogs go out on Master test where you had a long blind after some medium length marks. Then a 50 yard blind. The short blind would kill a good many of the dogs.

Trykon wrote:

rboudet wrote:Question for the hunt testers, since I don't run HT, well at least not in the last two years. I know HT blinds are about 100 - 150 yards or so. So, in training wouldn't you want to run blinds much futher say 200+ to get the dog thinking, I need to keep going to get that bird?

You need a mixture of short and long blinds. I know that most people say if your dog can run a 300 yard blind with factors than he can run a 60 yard blind with factors. Well i agree and disagree with that. If your dog can handle cleanly at long distances he will handle cleanly at short distances. But just as Gator said if you run all long blinds then your dog always wants to go long and can have trouble with short blinds. I've seen many of dogs go out on Master test where you had a long blind after some medium length marks. Then a 50 yard blind. The short blind would kill a good many of the dogs.

This seems to contradict the above statement. If they can handle at 200, handling at 50 is much easier. So why would you loose them on a 50yd blind? Heck with me if she can't hold a line for 25 to 50 yds she gets one cast refusal/scallop then there will be an appropriate correction involved. (I am talking about an experienced dog not a newbie and of course I know not all dog can are the same and for some attrition will work). Also we never ever run just one blind in training, it is always at least two one long and then short or vise versa. The only time we run one blind is when it is combined with marks before, after or interrupted. For me I want her to keep going until I tell you to stop.

I really can't answer that but have seen many 50 yard master blinds that put alot of dogs out. Guess they've run long blinds for so long that they don't want to believe the blind is that short.

Trykon wrote:I really can't answer that but have seen many 50 yard master blinds that put alot of dogs out. Guess they've run long blinds for so long that they don't want to believe the blind is that short.

Or, their basics are not as good as thought.

Cant wait to see Lil Lucy