Cast refusals

[D. Walker]

i am sure you have heard of Lean Mac - well here is a prime example of a dog that the typical days set-ups were not challenging enough so a complete different and harder more challenging set-up had to be brought out. Not saying that you should make the difficulty more for the dog - I would go back to basic drills if the dog is understanding hte basics through transition in the yard and or field then you have an idea that the dog understands the tasks asked - if the wheel falls off in more complex situations then simplify at least you will have an idea of where the corrections need to be carried over to - and or simplified tasks.

I had a dog in training just like described - the dog wanted to think for himself and thought he knew where it was - dogs that are great markers are generally poor handlers - generally speaking - dogs that are great handlers - generally pop - and or are not great markers - that is common knowledge.

So what kind of dog do we have here is it a great marker and if so then maybe that is where the wheel is falling off - quit marking th dog and concentrate on the problem - if not well then keep at it - time repetition anda clear understanding breeds success.

David Pompous

[Troy Williams]

i am sure you have heard of Lean Mac -
David Pompous

Look like we have a NAME DROPPER

[Meeka]

I see there has been some disagreement amongst the posters. Since I was the one who asked for opinions and advice, I want to thank gator and David for the differing points of view. Actually, I think EVERY post on this thread has helped me and EVERY one made sense. Thank you. I'd like to go back and look at every single thing that people said, but I don't have time right now, as y'all remember, I am getting ready for a move and have to work.

But, a few quick thoughts, cause maybe this will help people othe rthan me who find themselves close to where I am.

I like David's drill, but after posting about it and BEFORE reading the whole thread, I decided that it might not be best for me to use it NOW. I will use it later, though. And Gator is right, it wasn't long ago that we were still learning the difference between an angle and a back. I didn't like the idea of ignoring him and letting him run free when he missed the first cast, but I absolutely love the ideas of a. waiting longer after the whistle before giving the cast, then b. if he still misses the first cast, the whistle sit and go sit on the tailgate for a while, then either come back with the cast or move closer and give the cast. He is certainly well behaved and will remain there while I do whatever I want.

The ideas about using a coorection, I think are not really what I had in mind when I posted, it was more about reading my dog and what things I oughta take into consideration, and I have gotten that. Yes, he is taking a back when I give an over and yes I am convinced he knows the difference, but I think the reason is something OTHER THAN "F - YOU". he may be doing it his way at that particular moment, but I think it is a learning or training issue as opposed to an attitude issue.

At any rate, I have decided I can do better taking what EVERYBODY said into consideration. ANd actually I have a new idea based on what was posted by everyone here and I'd like to know what y'all think. Say my problem, and I believe a significant part of the present difficulty is this, is that he has gotten a little more confident and has gotten away from RELYING on me to get him to where he needs to go. So as a reminder of that, I think I might modify David's drill.

We (everyone here) would like to take a take very straight, direct line to the blind destination. As I understand David's drill, the dog is going to a pile he sees, but is stopped and cast to another pile. What I am thinking seems to be a blending/variation of that and casting drills. Say go to the field and plant a single cold blind. Better yet make it a duck. Take a bad line initially ON PURPOSE. Make dog follow your casts to get to the bird that is in a direction 90-180 degrees away from where he lined up. Don't use long distances though. So you make him change directions and follow casts that are not all designed to get him to one particular point that was CLOSE to what he started towards. Kinda like an obstacal course approach. Kinda like navigating him through a minefield. ANyw ay, y'all probably can't see what I have in mind from what I wrote, but in my mind it would be a basic, easy drill with the same purpose as Davids but without the repition of piles and without casting AWAY from a known pile. WOuld this concept be any different?
What excited me about posting

[Meeka]

anyway, I'll finish later.

[Chuckle12]

Come on guys... group hug...

[Meeka]

In no particular order:

he is a pretty nice marker, IMO and others have said so.

He has pretty good memory, and if he forgets on a memory mark, I can sometimes see him remember the fall on the way out.

It hasn't been long at all before he got a 100 on a handling drill, so more foundation is needed, so I need to remmeber that. Bad habit of mine. In january, everything (at the time) came together and we were really handling all of a sudden (overs and backs) and we really kinda breezed through Seasoned and by March I wanted to try Finished. tried it and saw how foolish I was. Point is how easy it is to forget where you just came from and to move on to quickly.

Eastwoods - it takes 2-3 casts, then it goes smothly.
Eastwood - you wrote "It's far harder to stop a bad habit than to create a good habit. That's probably the best advice I can give you." That is exactly why I posted this to begin with cause I could see if he got himself accustomed to really paying attention to the 3rd cast, we'd be in big trouble.

I don't need to beat him at this point. And call back I only am using for a bad initial line. And to think of it, what I am talking about being the problem is a slightly off initial line, that I try to correct with an angle back that he takes a back on, twice. I think it might work for me to after the first incorrect cast to whistle stop and bring him in a few feet, then cast, if a delay before the cast is given has not worked.

And I want to test some more and get to where I can EXPECT to pass finished, as opposed to wondering how difficult the test will be. I'd like 100 points. And I'd like 2 more Senior passes. It is not out of the question if after that we will think about Master.]

As far as problems at the initial line, the bad lines are only 5-10 degrees, but bad enough to need correcting. The 5-10 degrees usually results from some kinda factor, like maybe looking at a tree instead of the slot.

David wrote :"If you would like a detail description of some drills and a full defenition then shoot me a PM with a fax number and will send them to you - if you do not like them well throw them away.' I'd like them. My fax is attn Dave 601-684-0566. Thanks everyone.

[D. Walker]

meeka I will get them out to you tomorrow - have to get ready to head out to a field trialers here to train tomorrow.
David

[Meeka]

Went back and reread this today, July 5, 2006, cause we have had a LONG (5 months) layoff due to injury and are rehabing in water and are having casting issues. Anyway, theres some good stuff on here. And the last post by Troy about "No" hit home cause I didn't pay attention to it before but now understand the issue with using "No". ANyway, we have decided to go to Luchenbach Texas ( Back to the basics for those who aren't ole time country music fans).

[Meeka]

I'm so old I have forgotten. How do y'all teach angle backs and at what point in the dog's progress did you do it?

[lukariffic]

I second gator for emphasizing the slowing down of casts.

Here is some more to think about.
I train my dogs amish aswell.
I am very carfull to train with as many layers, feel, sight, sound, sometimes smell. When I get lazy, by not giving crisp commands with as many senses as possible, so does my dog. Or if I try to hurry things up

Here is how i cast.
I cast with my thumb down, this way it is impossible to swing your arm "behind" and out of view.
I use a soft voice "over" and a hard "BACK" this is particularly important in water, because the sound is heard a lot louder.
I take three steps left or right when giving overs.

I dont teach angle casts. I dont want to teach an extra set of directions.
If i want an angle back, all I have to do is change the inflection in my voice. from "over" to "OVER", which has the same inflection as "BACK". And I get a angle cast.

Meeka, Im not suggesting you change your casting routine, I dont know what it is, nor do i know if you are doing anything wrong, but you may get some ideas from the way I do it.

Another great drill to solidify overs and teach a dog to accept direction is Walking Baseball. Its a little wordy and im heading away to work for a week. Perhaps someone else has it.

Good luck

[lukariffic]

Ooops I only read the first page of replies before I posted, now I wish I hadnt posted.

[jsherwin]

Well alittle different approce. I don't take 3 steps to the left are right on overs maybe one depending on how for the dog is out. My hand placement is already showing the direction when the dog turns. However I do teach angle backs, These is where my 3 step "jump shot form" to the left are the right comes in to play. Alot of people don't like it, and it may come back to haunt me. but right now it works . I set mine up just like T drills just incorporated angle backs. Let him no were the are. Shot me down if i'm wrong.

[lukariffic]

A little more on the way I do angle fowards

I dont teach an angle foward seperately.
I simply recall the dog and take a few quick steps foward on an angle to wich i want the angle cast.
Most dogs will react to this and take a nice angle cast about 30deg of center without ever been taught.
To get a bigger angle (approx 60 deg) I give an over with a recall whistle.
With a little practise you can get plenty of different angles not just at the "points of the compass"

I should mention how I handle my dogs in the upland field.
I do not teach a dog to corner or pattern with specific commands. Nor do I restrict thier range by specific commands.
I handle them using influence a dog naturally wants to be in front of you, and will run to the front. If I want the dog to go left, on the return of his cast I take a few steps to the left. If I want him hard left I turn and take a few steps in that direction. Pretty soon you can handle a dog very well without saying a word. There are also ways to increase and decrease thier range which I will not go into here.

Why do I do this.
Firstly, I want the dog to learn where the birds are, which type of cover they are in. They will start to hunt from objective to objective, rather than a pattern which depending on the type of birds and cover, may be inefficient.

The dog will learn to flush the birds back towards you. Once again this depends on the type of birds, and the terain you are hunting.
But by runing generally a long oval cast 60-100 yards out sometimes more. The dog circles the birds and sends them back, pretty soon he will learn that if he sends them back towards you he gets some lovely feathers in his mouth this works especially well with pheasants and quail in an open and flat field. Other types of birds and terain have a specific escape plan in mind, in this situation its up to me to get between where the birds are going to fly and the dog.

It is fantastic to be able to go for a days hunt and not talk, whistle or control the dog, just watch him and be more sucessfull at it.

What does this have to do with handling.
Well my dogs from a very young age have been responding to my influence and body movement essentially taking unofficial casts.
One time I threw a dummy in the mississippi in minesota from the east bank, its a beautiful, free stone river, and was very high at the time. The dog marked it swam fairly close to it, when he got in the vecinity he turned up river, whilst the dummy was floating down river. Ooops I had recently been throwing him a lot of marks from the west back back home in wich he naturally turns down river. I called his name, turned and took a few steps down river and he spun, and took a 40 yard cast in a turbulent fast flowing river.
I know its something that plenty of other dogs could do easily. But I was impressed with his first ever cast with no official training. Perhaps it was luck.

Im not telling anyone that they are doing it wrong. Nor is this meant as instructional guidance. This is just the way i do it. You may want to use some influence with your casting technique or prior to teaching casting. I think it is a very powerful tool. I also believe that body, movement, and hand signals when taught and utilised properly are stronger and more important than voice. As many ques as possible.

And I have had the discussion plenty of times before about range, and pattern, if someone wants to talk about it, start another, thread and I would be happy to talk more about it

[lukariffic]

A little more on the way I do angle fowards

I dont teach an angle foward seperately.
I simply recall the dog and take a few quick steps foward on an angle to wich i want the angle cast.
Most dogs will react to this and take a nice angle cast about 30deg of center without ever been taught.
To get a bigger angle (approx 60 deg) I give an over with a recall whistle.
With a little practise you can get plenty of different angles not just at the "points of the compass"

I should mention how I handle my dogs in the upland field.
I do not teach a dog to corner or pattern with specific commands. Nor do I restrict thier range by specific commands.
I handle them using influence a dog naturally wants to be in front of you, and will run to the front. If I want the dog to go left, on the return of his cast I take a few steps to the left. If I want him hard left I turn and take a few steps in that direction. Pretty soon you can handle a dog very well without saying a word. There are also ways to increase and decrease thier range which I will not go into here.

Why do I do this.
Firstly, I want the dog to learn where the birds are, which type of cover they are in. They will start to hunt from objective to objective, rather than a pattern which depending on the type of birds and cover, may be inefficient.

The dog will learn to flush the birds back towards you. Once again this depends on the type of birds, and the terain you are hunting.
But by runing generally a long oval cast 60-100 yards out sometimes more. The dog circles the birds and sends them back, pretty soon he will learn that if he sends them back towards you he gets some lovely feathers in his mouth this works especially well with pheasants and quail in an open and flat field. Other types of birds and terain have a specific escape plan in mind, in this situation its up to me to get between where the birds are going to fly and the dog.

It is fantastic to be able to go for a days hunt and not talk, whistle or control the dog, just watch him and be more sucessfull at it.

What does this have to do with handling.
Well my dogs from a very young age have been responding to my influence and body movement essentially taking unofficial casts.
One time I threw a dummy in the mississippi in minesota from the east bank, its a beautiful, free stone river, and was very high at the time. The dog marked it swam fairly close to it, when he got in the vecinity he turned up river, whilst the dummy was floating down river. Ooops I had recently been throwing him a lot of marks from the west back back home in wich he naturally turns down river. I called his name, turned and took a few steps down river and he spun, and took a 40 yard cast in a turbulent fast flowing river.
I know its something that plenty of other dogs could do easily. But I was impressed with his first ever cast with no official training. Perhaps it was luck.

Im not telling anyone that they are doing it wrong. Nor is this meant as instructional guidance. This is just the way i do it. You may want to use some influence with your casting technique or prior to teaching casting. I think it is a very powerful tool. I also believe that body, movement, and hand signals when taught and utilised properly are stronger and more important than voice. As many ques as possible.

And I have had the discussion plenty of times before about range, and pattern, if someone wants to talk about it, start another, thread and I would be happy to talk more about it