The "Threat of Grace"

[marty lee]

so what do you say to a man that walked with the LORD for ten years faithful to the best of his abilities and then "events" in his life crushed his "faith" and he just gave up? is he still going to heaven?or do you believe he was never "saved" to begin with altho for 10years you would have thought he was?? if he dies tomorrow what would you tell his family if they asked you do you think he went to heaven? lets say he doesnt go to church any more but isnt a "bad "person.......

Hey man, welcome to the board.

This question was batted around for a while in the thread titled "Predestination." You should read through it if you've got the time.

The short answer I would give, would be something like the quote below. It's from one of the most prominent pastors in America, talking about this same sort of situation.

"I'll be very personal, to give it it's sharpest point. If in the coming years I commit apostasy and fall away from Christ, it will not be because I have not tasted of the word of God and the Spirit of God and the miracles of God. I have drunk of his word. The Spirit has touched me. I have seen his miracles and I have been his instrument for a few.

But if, over the next ten or twenty years, John Piper begins to cool off spiritually and lose interest in spiritual things and become more fascinated with making money and writing Christless books; and I buy the lie that a new wife would be exhilarating and that the children can fend for themselves and that the church of Christ is a drag and that the incarnation is a myth and that there is one life to live so let us eat drink and be merry—if that happens, then know that the truth is this: John Piper was mightily deceived in the first fifty years of his life. His faith was an alien vestige of his father's joy. His fidelity to his wife was a temporary passion and compliance with social pressure; his fatherhood the outworking of natural instincts. His preaching was driven by the love of words and crowds. His writing was a love affair with fame. And his praying was the deepest delusion of all—an attempt to get God to supply the resources of his vanity."

God help us all.

Chris

thanks for the welcome
are not the things that he goes and does "works" albeit bad works so would it not stand to reason that if bad works keep us out? and if this man was deceived how does anyone know that they are not being deceived?

[the doctor]

marty that is a tough question...I have included in this reply what Calvinist believe and why based on scripture

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

to that end the "man" you are describing while enduring incredible hardship cannot lose his faith...even you phrased the question as "crushed" not "lost"...much rather have crushed faith than none at all

I dont beleive going to church gets you to heaven nor does not attending keep you out, same way I dont believe being good gets you in and sinning keeps you out..I do believe if you have faith you will want to fellowship with other believers and you will want to be a better person

If sinning keeps you out then we are all lost

the doc

[Gordon]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Wonderful works do not mean you are saved.

Yes, I know, I am late.

[Deep Woods]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The Greek word for works as used here in the Scripture is praxis, {prax'-is} from 4238 prasso; defined as; practice, i.e. (concretely) an act; by extension, a function:--deed, office, work.
prasso, pras'-so - a primary verb; to "practise", i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually; by implication, to execute, accomplish, etc.; specially, to collect (dues), fare (personally):--commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Greek word for works as used here in the Scripture is ergon, {er'-gon} from a primary ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

1Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works,

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
-- to maintain good works. That is, to practice them ourselves, and by our example and exhortation to encourage others to practice them; and to argue in their defense against those who speak of them slightingly, as not necessary to salvation.

Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Learn here, ….That as Christianity is no barren and fruitless profession, but all persons professing religion ought to take care that good works may accompany their faith.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

The Greek word for repentance is; metanoia, {met-an'-oy-ah} as defined by Strongs Greek - (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance.

[the doctor]

How much or many good works are enough to get you into heaven?

Did the thief on the cross go to heaven? how many good works did he have?

No one is denying works as part of the Christian walk, the author is simply stating that "good works" dont get you into heaven and that people would like to believe they do so they have some control over God or their right to heaven.

The only rights we have are afforded by Gods grace, hence the "threat".

the doc

[Deep Woods]

How much or many good works are enough to get you into heaven?

Did the thief on the cross go to heaven? how many good works did he have?
No one is denying works as part of the Christian walk, the author is simply stating that "good works" dont get you into heaven and that people would like to believe they do so they have some control over God or their right to heaven.

The only rights we have are afforded by Gods grace, hence the "threat".

the doc

We are reminded of the thiefs works by the following Scriptures....

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

....the other answering rebuked him -What a surprising degree was here of repentance, faith, and other graces!
And what abundance of good works, in his public confession of his sin, reproof of his fellow criminal, his honourable testimony to Christ, and profession of faith in him, while he was in so disgraceful circumstances as were stumbling even to his disciples! This shows the power of Divine grace.

[Gordon]

so, all you need is four good works get you into heaven and that is an abundance? That is your answer? We can map out how many works that the theif did and specify each one and get the answer! It is now plain! Are those the absolute only works that theif did? I only ask because if we have an obvious clear example of works getting you saved, then we can finally answer that question!

Which, of course, we cannot, and I await for you to show me how I am misunderstanding your plain and uncomplicated answer.

James is describing the Christian (as in already saved, he calls them "brethren" in verse 14) perspective in that we are changed people serving God. Paul is speaking to the sinner in that no works will save you and nothing but faith will save you. Either there is a major contradiction between Romans and James, because they are polar opposites, or the contexts are completely different and they are talking about different things.

Speaking of works "slightingly"? You speak of the blood of Jesus as if it were not enough. I wonder why when Jesus asked in the garden that if there were any other way that God take this cup from him, why didn't God say, "no, I need it for half of salvation. Man will need to add one to four works in with your blood."?

If Jesus' blood was not enough, why use it? Why not use thousands of bulls, with hundreds of thousands of lambs? Why use the blood of God if it were not enough?

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

He earned it for us - and since we are saved, and the old dead works are gone, we are a new creature that only desires the things of God - which are good works.

[Deep Woods]

A person can profess to be saved all they want to...BUT without good works/changed life as proof of that salvation, it is dead. (does the drastically changed life of the apostle Paul ring a bell?) A changed lifestyle, a change of friends, change of places you go, change of what you are a part of, a change of your language used (no cussing), a new outlook on sin. These are all proof of true repentance and salvation. Not just “professing” to be a Christian and then still living just like the rest of the "world"…. all the while your lifestyle, friends, and the things you do tell the truth about your "profession". 1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


Do you still hang around the same old friends you did before your profession? (Did Paul?)
Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Do you still go the same places you did before your profession? (Did Paul?)

Do you still do the same things you did before your profession? (Did the woman caught in adultery, continue to do that?)
Ephesians 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Do you rebuke your “friends” when they cuss, drink, or speak the Lord’s name in vain, etc…or do you just go along with them and say nothing? (The thief on the cross rebuked his “friend”!)
1Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Do you still go to the same “worldly” events with the same “worldly” friends you did before your profession? Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Do you still drink, smoke, dip, chew, watch things on T.V. you shouldn’t, listen to someone tell a dirty joke and then laugh at it, gamble, go to parties (where there is drinking and “worldly” things going on), etc...etc..? 1Corithians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

If so, then there is a need to examine ones self against God’s Word…that is a faith without works. The bad works/fruits prove that your profession is “fake” and you are a stumbling block to lost souls and to new Christians that see a person professing to know Jesus Christ….but they live just like the devil. Such a person lives only to satisfy their own lust, wants, pleasures and does not take into account the people that they are being a stumbling block to because of their unholy lifestyle/ways/friends.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Philipians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Let’s take a close look at this scripture….
Whose end is destruction. That is, as they have no true religion, they must perish in the same manner as all sinners. A mere profession will not save them. Unless they are converted, and become the true friends of the cross, they cannot enter heaven.

Whose God is their belly. Who worship their own appetites; or who live not to adore and honour God, but for self-indulgence and sensual gratifications.

And whose glory is in their shame. That is, they glory in things of which they ought to be ashamed. They indulge in modes of living which ought to cover them with confusion.

Who mind earthly things. That is, whose hearts are set on earthly things, or who live to obtain them. Their attention is directed to honour, gain, or pleasure, and their chief anxiety is that they may secure these objects. This is mentioned as one of the characteristics of enmity to the cross of Christ; and if this be so, how many are there in the church now who are the real enemies of the cross! How many professing Christians are there who regard little else than worldly things! How many who live only to acquire wealth, to gain honour, or to enjoy the pleasures of the world! How many are there who have no interest in a prayer-meeting, in a Sabbath-school, in religious conversation, and in the advancement of true religion on the earth! These are the real enemies of the cross. It is not so much those who deny the doctrines of the cross, as it is those who oppose its influence on their hearts; not so much those who live to scoff and deride religion, as it is those who "mind earthly things," that injure this holy cause in the world.

With that, I give this example….My dad is an alcoholic among other things…if you try to talk to him about God, or becoming a Christian ..he says “Well, “so and so” is a Christian and they drink with us, gamble with us..etc…I’m doing just a good as they are!” My brother is the same way. WHY?…Because so called “professors of faith”….even some teachers of Sunday School, deacons, and such live just like the devil in front of them, these “professors of faith” go to the drinking/gambling parties, football games, nascar races or get-togethers, cookouts at the beach with drinking and half-naked women and men walking around, watch the filthy TV shows, listen to “worldly” music, drink alcohol, smoke, dip, chew, and even cuss…they do the very things that nailed Jesus Christ to the Cross and get up on Sunday and go to church…. And then they wonder why people are not really getting saved, truly saved, changing their lifestyle, turning from sin…they wonder why they don’t see God moving/working. They just don’t understand why they can’t have revival..real, true Spirit filled revival….it is quite shameful to say the least…Oh! there may be some worldly sorrow if they get caught doing these things, but no true repentance…..They have NO WORKS meet for repentance!!!..their faith is DEAD!!!


Read the Scriptures for yourself.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Gordon]

A person can profess to be saved all they want to...BUT without good works/changed life as proof of that salvation, it is dead. (does the drastically changed life of the apostle Paul ring a bell?) A changed lifestyle, a change of friends, change of places you go, change of what you are a part of, a change of your language used (no cussing), a new outlook on sin. These are all proof of true repentance and salvation. Not just “professing” to be a Christian and then still living just like the rest of the "world"…. all the while your lifestyle, friends, and the things you do tell the truth about your "profession". 1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

So how can one be carnal and be in Christ? 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

This, and the sum of your examples, shows that people can WALK AS MEN and be saved - even "babes in Christ" are in Christ



Do you still hang around the same old friends you did before your profession? (Did Paul?)
Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Do you still go the same places you did before your profession? (Did Paul?)

Do you still do the same things you did before your profession? (Did the woman caught in adultery, continue to do that?)
Ephesians 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Do you rebuke your “friends” when they cuss, drink, or speak the Lord’s name in vain, etc…or do you just go along with them and say nothing? (The thief on the cross rebuked his “friend”!)
1Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Do you still go to the same “worldly” events with the same “worldly” friends you did before your profession? Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Do you still drink, smoke, dip, chew, watch things on T.V. you shouldn’t, listen to someone tell a dirty joke and then laugh at it, gamble, go to parties (where there is drinking and “worldly” things going on), etc...etc..? 1Corithians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

If so, then there is a need to examine ones self against God’s Word…that is a faith without works. The bad works/fruits prove that your profession is “fake” and you are a stumbling block to lost souls and to new Christians that see a person professing to know Jesus Christ….but they live just like the devil. Such a person lives only to satisfy their own lust, wants, pleasures and does not take into account the people that they are being a stumbling block to because of their unholy lifestyle/ways/friends.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Philipians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Let’s take a close look at this scripture….
Whose end is destruction. That is, as they have no true religion, they must perish in the same manner as all sinners. A mere profession will not save them. Unless they are converted, and become the true friends of the cross, they cannot enter heaven.

Whose God is their belly. Who worship their own appetites; or who live not to adore and honour God, but for self-indulgence and sensual gratifications.

And whose glory is in their shame. That is, they glory in things of which they ought to be ashamed. They indulge in modes of living which ought to cover them with confusion.

Who mind earthly things. That is, whose hearts are set on earthly things, or who live to obtain them. Their attention is directed to honour, gain, or pleasure, and their chief anxiety is that they may secure these objects. This is mentioned as one of the characteristics of enmity to the cross of Christ; and if this be so, how many are there in the church now who are the real enemies of the cross! How many professing Christians are there who regard little else than worldly things! How many who live only to acquire wealth, to gain honour, or to enjoy the pleasures of the world! How many are there who have no interest in a prayer-meeting, in a Sabbath-school, in religious conversation, and in the advancement of true religion on the earth! These are the real enemies of the cross. It is not so much those who deny the doctrines of the cross, as it is those who oppose its influence on their hearts; not so much those who live to scoff and deride religion, as it is those who "mind earthly things," that injure this holy cause in the world.

With that, I give this example….My dad is an alcoholic among other things…if you try to talk to him about God, or becoming a Christian ..he says “Well, “so and so” is a Christian and they drink with us, gamble with us..etc…I’m doing just a good as they are!” My brother is the same way. WHY?…Because so called “professors of faith”….even some teachers of Sunday School, deacons, and such live just like the devil in front of them, these “professors of faith” go to the drinking/gambling parties, football games, nascar races or get-togethers, cookouts at the beach with drinking and half-naked women and men walking around, watch the filthy TV shows, listen to “worldly” music, drink alcohol, smoke, dip, chew, and even cuss…they do the very things that nailed Jesus Christ to the Cross and get up on Sunday and go to church…. And then they wonder why people are not really getting saved, truly saved, changing their lifestyle, turning from sin…they wonder why they don’t see God moving/working. They just don’t understand why they can’t have revival..real, true Spirit filled revival….it is quite shameful to say the least…Oh! there may be some worldly sorrow if they get caught doing these things, but no true repentance…..They have NO WORKS meet for repentance!!!..their faith is DEAD!!!


Read the Scriptures for yourself.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[b]This only proves that works are PROOF of faith, not the means for salvation. If faith alone is not salvation, as in your assertion, why are they trying to prove it?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Here we see that believing the facts is not enough.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

These two things that James is quoting happened at different times in Abrahams life. God "counted it to him as righteousness" 20 years before Isaac was upon the alter. When we see Abraham's work at the altar, we see PROOF of an unwaivering true faith that had to have been there long before he was commanded to take the trip.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/b]

A faith that does not desire good works is dead, yes, that is clear. But the only thing that works actually get us is reward, or treasure, in heaven. If we are saved to a true faith, we desire the things of God, this is evidenced by good works because

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

You still do not answer how many works are needed - you descibed 4 in your example of the thief, and you use that example as absolute proof.

[the doctor]

we had a discussion in our youth group (I sat in as I am no longer a ute) about Jeffrey Dahmer?

conversation started out asking is he in heaven? according to the prison chaplain several months before he was killed in prison he had proclaimed Christ as his savior

is he there?

the doc

[Gordon]

We don't know the heart of Jeffery Dahmer, or any other man, enough to know where he is. As written in James (see above), you can believe the facts of the existense of God just like the devils believe. The devils are not going to heaven.

He could be, without doubt, if he came to a true faith.

The Word of God shows that people can do wonderful works and not be saved, and that they can do no works and be saved. Works can be a proof of salvation, but good works (in God's eyes, not man's) are also the product of salvation. When we are truly saved, the abilities and desires are given to us. But you must be truly saved - you must "make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

US = Saved Fellers good works are the basis of life and how we show godliness (since we can't create universes and such). How we are to walk, our conversation, study these things in the bible - they are what is being described here.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2 Peter 1:8 For IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Good works are a product of what was given you, if you are truly saved - salvation and the Holy Spirit MAKE YOU not be barren of works. PROOF of salvation - not necessary for salvation.

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If Jeffrey was sure, then he is in heaven but I don't know his heart.

[the doctor]

agreed, our answer to the question was "we sure hope so, or we dont have much chance"

seems hard to believe and I agree we cannot truly know his heart but what we know of Gods saving grace would allow him to enter if his faith was true

works come about with faith as a "want to" not a "have to" and I think thats what "faith without works" is stating

we view Christs death as paying the price for our sins, but that is not enough to get us into heaven, we need His perfect life credited to us to enter

the doc

[Gordon]

I have asked Calvinists before, "What makes you sure you are one of the elect?" and their answer is normally, "Good works."

But you cannot rely on good works to prove God has forced irrestistable grace upon you if you also need to make your calling and election sure. How could God make you believe something that you are unsure about?

The Calvinist says that God saved you no matter what you want because he chose you to be one of the elect. But how can that be so if YOU need to make your election sure? God did all of this and left you in the dark? Why would you need to worry about being saved if you are chosen by God to be saved? Is it possible that you need to check up after God to make sure He did not miss anything?

Why worry about false teachers if you are saved to faith in the absolute truth in an instant no matter what you believe or want? Surely, there is no danger in listening to a false teacher if it has no bearing on your beliefs - that irresistable grace would remove all false thoughts of what you believe. You can't have faith in the truth and be saved, and have faith in a lie and be condemned at the same time.

Why would God call all men to him if He knew the majority of them were on their way to hell and He had no intention of giving them a chance to change that? The Calvinist says that God does not give anyone a chance. That warning of false teachers has no teeth if what you believed did not matter, God would force you to the truth no matter what. The majority of men don't have the choice to not believe a lie because Jesus did not die for them - His blood was only for the ones He loves...that is the Calvinist claim.

[Deep Woods]

I never "prescribed" any amount of works, thats was you putting words in my mouth. I was showing that "faith without works is dead" just as the Scripture says.


Carnal Christians...don't think so????
1Corinthians 3:3 --is speaking of the people just like I mentioned in the previous post..they claim to be Christians but "walk as men" and Paul is rebuking the majority of them at Corinth and showing them that they are not true Christians as they were "professing", but were in truth, still carnal, unregenerate, just like "worldly men". People today have the same issues and some false teacher/preacher tells them "Oh, it's okay... you are just a carnal Christian" STOP IT!!!! They are lost..they need to get on their knees and pray thru!!!

The Greek word for carnal is; sarkikos, {sar-kee-kos'} defined as - pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.

1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

[Gordon]

I never "prescribed" any amount of works, thats was you putting words in my mouth. No, I never used the word "prescribed," that is your being not careful in your reading and putting words in MY mouth. I was showing that "faith without works is dead" just as the Scripture says. Did you not count 4 works and say that it is "an abundance?" You also called it a "surprising degree."

The Greek word for abundance is "huperbole" a throwing beyond others, i.e. (figuratively) supereminence; adverbially (with 1519 or 2596) pre- eminently:--abundance, (far more) exceeding, excellency, more excellent, beyond (out of) measure.

Your words show that you believe that these 4 works are more than enough. Am I misinterpreting you? All the thief did was 4 works in addition to having faith and THEN he was saved?

Carnal Christians...don't think so???? No matter what you think, Paul called them "brethren" and "in Christ" and he called them "carnal." So as not to put words in your mouth, are you saying that "brethren" and "in Christ" can be taken as not meaning "saved?" I would ask that you please be specific in answering that and how can Paul call them all three of those things?.

1Corinthians 3:3 --is speaking of the people just like I mentioned in the previous post..they claim to be Christians but "walk as men" and Paul is rebuking the majority of them at Corinth and showing them that they are not true Christians as they were "professing", but were in truth, still carnal, unregenerate, just like "worldly men". People today have the same issues and some false teacher/preacher tells them "Oh, it's okay... you are just a carnal Christian" STOP IT!!!! They are lost..they need to get on their knees and pray thru!!!

So if you sin once, you are lost? You need to keep clean to make it? The bible says that is impossible and if you say it is, the bible calls you a liar. Do you sin?

The Greek word for carnal is; sarkikos, {sar-kee-kos'} defined as - pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.

1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

AM...PRESENT TENSE...look up the greek for that.

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

DWELLETH...ALSO PRESENT TENSE...yet Paul is saved.

1 John 1:8-10 If WE (the saved, brethren, us) say that we HAVE (present tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US (saved people) our sins, and to cleanse us (saved people)from all unrighteousness. If WE (saved people) say that WE (saved people) have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We still have the Adamic nature because we still wear flesh and we cannot keep all of the commandments it is impossible even Paul had not been able to stop sinning- missing a command is a sin, but if we confess it as such, He can cleanse us from all unrgihteousness but, without putting words in your mouth, even you would admit that you still sin. And if you say you don't, the bible calls you a liar. So have you sinned? You cannot call yourself saved until the end, until you know that you did not miss a command, leave out a work, or forget to confess a sin...do you really think you caught them all? You might not be saved!

Edit: One more...

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus did not seem disturbed about a brother sinning against another? Why not? Why not tell him that because he sinned, that the other man did not qualify as a brother?