a topic of discussion......

[goosebruce]

The intent was because I found it odd the same phrase could be used so differently by so many different people, involved in the same actiivty. If I found this odd, then someone else might well have been confused. heck, maybe I was confused. Then apprently i wrote my question cofusing, because several folks thought I meant the same dog handling on 3. If a dog handles on 3, then the dog sucks, or the test sucks. No questions about it. But sometimes when you tell someone what YOUR thinking, they aint thought much about it, so they think the same thing you do. Welp, whats the since of asking someone something they're probably just gonna say yeah... so we got this cool internet discussion where we all sound smart!

the problem I see with the 'money' bird mentality..... since handling on a mark is allowed, if the other marks are simply going thru the motions, how can we adequelty test marking and memory if we really only have one mark? If people handle on the 'money' bird, yet pick the footballs up, they have passed the marking and memory portion even if they failed (i.e. handled) the bird. Perhaps if paired with another series with 3 real marks, that might be acceptable, and if the grounds are suspect or lacking, that might be the only way to go. But really, if we are to judge marking and memory to any kind of an expected standard, how can we not make every effort to make every bird actually be a test of marking (or have another purpose realted to marking). I think the aksea ideology of a mark is mark, has some merit to it, even if I don't agree a little dog, medium dog, big dog mark is the same.

The memory bird being the 'hardest' mark of the test is a problem? I would think that being a memory bird, given all other things being equal, by nature of being a memory bird it would be the 'hardest'. Perhaps if we said 'hardest' by means of placement, but then again, often an extended hunt or handle on a tests go bird often dooms the dog your trying to not kill by erasing the memory of the birds on the ground. So a 'hard' bird as the go bird very well kill the dogs your trying to save. Now if we are simply talking distance, often times you are correct, a long memory bird seems to be 'harder' for more dogs than a long go bird.

How about the proverbial 'breaking' bird? travis

[gator]

How about the proverbial 'breaking' bird? travis

PISS ON THEM SUMBITCHES

gator

[goosebruce]

please expound. thanks in advance. travis

[gator]

piss i.e. urinate, micturate, break out the one eyed wonder dog, free willy, let the loggerhead breath.................................in other words, break out the weiner (skippyj, yes, you can squat) and piss on em

seriously though, and i'm not sure if we're still using them in the same context or not, but a breaking/wipe out bird is a GREAT bird.....i just hate seeing them all the time, know what i mean?

gator

[cdwyer]

A breaking bird tests nothing but control and could act as a wipe out depending when it is thrown. In what order should a breaking bird be thrown so that it does not interfer with your ability to accuratly judge marking and memory?

[T-Bone]

A breaking bird tests nothing but control and could act as a wipe out depending when it is thrown. In what order should a breaking bird be thrown so that it does not interfer with your ability to accuratly judge marking and memory?

zactly!!!! and gator says...."NEVER"

[goosebruce]

In my mind (and jargon) a breaking bird is one that simply tests steadiness... and a wiper or wipe out bird actually puts more strain on the birds already down. Similar yes, but I often wonder when I see 'breaking birds' if anyone thought about it, or just put a mark in to satisfy the we need a triple thingy. I wanted you to expound gator, because I wanted to know if piss on em because 1/6 of your marking test was just squandered, or your dog wouldn't sit. But i figgered you where in the middle on it, and you are, so thats cool, glad you expounded. It doesnt bother me when it has a purpose, but to squander my marking test for a sit test, welp, thats what british trials are for (maybe b3 will get in now! hehe).

a bird that splashes takes away from a bird that doesnt. So depending on your birds, the wipe out effect might be proper with a 2nd bird, or a last bird. But a bird that splashes almost always makes more effect than a bird that doesn't. Thats why dogs seem to break more on water marks, posion birds that splash have more effect, and dogs remember a bird that splashes more than one that doesn't.

Charles taking away from your abilty, or adding to your abilty... it just depends on the task (and the dogs) at hand which it doesn't, and takes good judgement to use it properly, like anything in a test. travis

[goosebruce]

remind me when i get time to talk about 'judge accordingly' and trey's use of adjusting the area of fall.... thats needs clarification. travis

[gator]

i agree w/ your assessment of a wiper vs a breaking bird for the most part.

and, i don't like sitting test or heeling competitions either.

gator

[cdwyer]

remind me when i get time to talk about 'judge accordingly' and trey's use of adjusting the area of fall.... thats needs clarification. travis

That should be a whole nuther topic. When I hear a judge say pick up the mark or run the blind and "we will judge accordingly" I already assumed that when I paid my entry that a judge would do nothing less. However when I hear this I would rather hear them say "Hey guys we didnt take this or that into consideration, or we dont have enough experience with bird or blind placemnet and we screwed up, just get it picked up" Things happen but you judges coming up through the ranks, there is no shame in asking for advice from the hunt test committe or an experienced judge judging another stake. Its more embarassing to set up stupid and try to defend it. You owe it to yourself because you are donating a weekends worth of your time, you owe it to the handlers as well they are expecting run a test consistant with the goals and ideals of the orgainiztion.

[gator]

remind me when i get time to talk about 'judge accordingly' and trey's use of adjusting the area of fall.... thats needs clarification. travis

That should be a whole nuther topic. When I hear a judge say pick up the mark or run the blind and "we will judge accordingly" I already assumed that when I paid my entry that a judge would do nothing less. However when I hear this I would rather hear them say "Hey guys we didnt take this or that into consideration, or we dont have enough experience with bird or blind placemnet and we screwed up, just get it picked up" Things happen but you judges coming up through the ranks, there is no shame in asking for advice from the hunt test committe or an experienced judge judging another stake. Its more embarassing to set up stupid and try to defend it. You owe it to yourself because you are donating a weekends worth of your time, you owe it to the handlers as well they are expecting run a test consistant with the goals and ideals of the orgainiztion.

DEAR CHARLES........

i said the same thing the other day......the SAME THING. BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i can't remember why we're wrong w/ our thinking, but i'm pretty sure someone thought we were.

i agree w/ you though, and always will.

your buddy, gator

[chance]

I am going to bite off on this thing. I have thought about it since I read it the first time, so here goes. I don't see this as being any deep philosophical question.

When you hear that statement, its normal connotation is negative. It is used when the test is perceived as being an extremely tough marking series. The bird placement on all three birds is such that all three birds have had dogs handle to them. Even the "simple" go bird.

First, we have to make several assumptions, since this is an imaginary test scenario.
1. The test is safe
2. The test is legal
3. The test is designed to adequately and fairly test a finished retriever.

Every thrown bird, or retrieve, in a test, should have a definitive purpose. Otherwise, why have that bird in your test? Since every bird should have a purpose, is it not reasonable to find that each bird thrown has elements that may cause a retriever to be handled to it?

Handling on GO birds is 95% the retriever's fault. Usually from poor control at the line.
Both "memory" birds should have elements that test a retriever's ability to mark and remember. Otherwise, why bother to throw them? For that matter, why throw the GO bird if it has no purpose? Oh yea, that's right, I gotta have three birds in the marking series for finished.
I am going to be redundant, every bird in a test should have a purpose. That purpose has to be to fairly and adequately test a retriever at its respected level. If that single goal is achieved, then, theorectically,one may see a retriever being handled to any of the marks thrown.

[Duck Chaser]

3. The test is designed to adequately and fairly test a finished retriever.

I know you're talking hrc, but would stress what Charles said "consistent w/ the ideals of the organization"..

If 95% of handling on the go-bird is the dog's fault/control, that only leaves 5% for judges/design. I'll take what I can get, and up it on memory birds. imo, if you actually have good marks, an extra effort needs to be made on the design end. You're swinging with a gun, shooting over the dog, with solid marks? There's no room for distractions or bad mechanics, if you want to be fair. My #1 hope would be that those "hidden guns" have minimal effect. Either all not visible, or all equally visible.

[skuna]

3. The test is designed to adequately and fairly test a finished retriever.

I know you're talking hrc, but would stress what Charles said "consistent w/ the ideals of the organization"..

If 95% of handling on the go-bird is the dog's fault/control, that only leaves 5% for judges/design. I'll take what I can get, and up it on memory birds. imo, if you actually have good marks, an extra effort needs to be made on the design end. You're swinging with a gun, shooting over the dog, with solid marks? There's no room for distractions or bad mechanics, if you want to be fair. My #1 hope would be that those "hidden guns" have minimal effect. Either all not visible, or all equally visible.

i see equally visible gun stations more often then not in HRC, but AKC has issues with this. This is made worse by the flyer factor.

And i know this is off the subject, but camo winger hides blowing in the wind in the middle of an open cow pasture with a bird boys booty hanging out of the back of it, IS not a hidden gun. Both AKC and HRC and guilty of this. Just saying.

[GulfCoast]

Just to clarify, I am not saying the "go bird" should be a gimmie. Or, per Jerry Mann, they should be discounted ad absurdum in the score.

However, since it has the LEAST memory erosion of any of the 3 birds, from my perspective I would simply not expect a significant number of dogs to handle on on a go bird. Maybe a couple from head swinging, etc.

If a significant number of finished dogs are handling on a go bird, at finished distances, I would suspect either test grounds that are off the chart, or ye olde "hen thrown low and parallel/into a shaded treeline" or other avoidable situation. Dogs can't mark what they can't see. If they CAN see a go bird, I would not expect a lot of dogs in finished/master to handle on it, Grand, Master National, Conehead, No Cone, Steel Cage Match, Don't Matter. Simply because it has the least memory erosion. If they do handle on the go bird, I figure they are gonna be toast on the memory birds.