Running Blind Retrieves

[B3]

DC,

I don't think I'd have told that.......I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "complimentary shower cap"

Seriously, does anyone have any tips about running blinds in tests or training? Has nobody here but me ever failed a blind? If anyone has failed, how did you fail it?

Bill

[Damn_It_Boy]

Failed one Sunday Bill. Big crosswind from left to right. Let my dog get to far downwind and way short of the blind. Was almost impossible to recover. (Same thing happened to about 10 other folks.). Dog refused to take the over needed into the wind and kept scalloping back and fading. In my case, he winded the bird about 20 yards away, and refused the whistle stop en route......

My fault. Shouldn't have never allowed the dog to get that far off line with a stiff crosswind.

Wasn't pretty.

[GulfCoast]

I have failed for loopy sit getting into high cover and bye-bye (trainers fault), so I now have spots planned out before we run that if she gets near, I blow a safety whistle and handle the hell out of there. And continue to work like hell on the loopy sit. I have failed for the dog not taking casts into a strong crosswind (trainers fault), and work on that as much as possible now down by the beach where there is always a strong wind. Sometimes it works, sometimes ..... I have failed for not being able to run tight off the back of a flyer station with the wind blowing off 2 crates of live birds (trainers fault). Ran a bunch of blinds past flyer crates to deal with that. Usually, I get into trouble trying to run test level "X" before having trained for all contingencies. But I never know what it is that I ain't trained for, until some Judge shows it to me for the first time. I basically stink, but my dog still likes me. I will know better with the next one, I hope.

[Trykon]

What do i do when getting ready to run a blind?


Well that all depends. If i'm training i will do exactly what GC talked about. I will look for the suction on the blind, and the factors of wind and terrain. However when training i will purposely put a dog in the suction to get the cast out of it. I will also run alot of cross wind blinds. While running cross wind blinds i will make the dog take several cast into the wind. How clean you run the blind doens't matter at this point in training. Your goal is to get the cast into the wind. This in one thing i think alot of people realized they need to work on this past weekend.


When running a test i will located the same factors and try to keep the dog away from them. However if they do get into the suction you have trained to get the cast out of it. If i'm running a blind with a strong cross wind lets say from left to right i will be very hesitant on giving any right cast. Right back or right over, they can get you into alot of trouble. So try and use only left cast. Keep in mind that you may need to give a left over to get at left angle back in these situations.

[Faithful Retrievers]

What about the factor of the sent of other dogs that have ran the test prior to you? Do you consider this as a factor? I have wondered about this as usually in training it hasn't been tramped over or your dog has been the only one out in the line. I guess its just another factor that a HT enviroment throws at the dog and helps to train in groups before hand. I personally don't like running a test unless I have had an opportunity to train several days with a group as the first few test dog was so amped with the enviroment that it made even simple task harder.

[B3]

Trykon suggests that theres a totally different approach to a blind in training versus a blind in a test and I agree. I've long known theres a difference but it was most clearly illustrated at the seminar last week. Lardy basically said in training you are giving the dog the opportunity to make a decision and then handle based on that. You will let him roll more and get into the factors as Trykon says. In a test you don't let him make any decisions. You handle defensively and don't allow any momentum to develop toward suction. This means quick whistles before he gets off line just as he starts to think of caving to a factor. Don't worry about literal casts and be ready to immediately blow a whistle if he doesnt give enough direction change so you can give another bigger cast.Don't give the same cast cast again if it didn't give you enough change in momentum away from the suction.

Question for the judges...........

I always considered a scallop as a CR. Lets say a dog is given a 45 degree cast into the wind and he takes it for 10 feet and then fades with the wind back off linejust as far off line as before. In my book this is a scallop and a CR. Some folks will have 10 scallops running the blind just off line and get the bird.

How do you judge this......Strong crosswind and you give same angle cast and dog takes it 10 feet and JUST as he starts to scallop you TOOT and give another bigger cast and now he carries it to the upwind side of the line to the stake. Do you count it as a CR if you stop and recast BEFORE he fades again?

Another question......

I've heard folks say if you have to give an over you probably out. Is there anything wrong with giving an over into the wind for 10 feet and then TOOT and cast back?

[Damn_It_Boy]

Over to the ribbon, back to the truck.........

[gator]

RUN THE BLIND

[flyntwt]

Over to the ribbon, back to the truck.........

I thought it was the other way around......

Cant remember sayings very well regards,

WF

[waterbug]

Great topic:

Few questions based on the responses:

When you are training to get the dog to take an over into heavy cross wind. What do you do when the dog scallops back instead of taking the cast. Do you sit, give cast again? Walk up to exert more control. At what point do you resort to the collar when the dog refuses to take the cast?

[B3]

In training you don't give overs. You would give the literal cast. If you want them to learn to fight factors like crosswind you do literal casts- save the overs for a test if you need to get out of trouble.

Bill

[waterbug]

In training you don't give overs. You would give the literal cast. If you want them to learn to fight factors like crosswind you do literal casts- save the overs for a test if you need to get out of trouble.

Bill

What do you do when the dog refuses to take your literal cast and scallops back and fades with the wind. How do you teach the dog to take the cast directly into a strong crosswind before going to nicks on the collar for cast refusals.

[stmasley]

Good thread - in my finished flight this weekend, several "young" (experience wise) dog/handler teams, myself included, failed blinds due to factors (mainly strong cross winds)

2 things I learned this weekend (and I learned a lot): we need to work on cross wind blinds, and I should have handled earlier (read: I should have never let my dog get into trouble)

Another question......

I've heard folks say if you have to give an over you probably out. Is there anything wrong with giving an over into the wind for 10 feet and then TOOT and cast back?

FWIW - one handler this weekend did this exact thing - strong cross wind from right to left - handler kicks the dog off and the dog immediately fades about 10 to 15 feet off line to the left - handler stops the dog and gives him a right over - the dog takes the over to the line to the blind, handler stops the dog and gives him a right back - the dog takes the cast and picks up the blind (there were a couple more whistles, but the dog stayed out of trouble)

The dog passed, and the judges specifically commented on how well the dog and handler executed the blind

Question - in training - when working on (teaching) casting into the wind - you give the dog a right angle back into the wind - how would you handle the these 2 responses:

1: dog takes the cast and carrys it for 10-15 yards then fades (scallops) with the wind
2: dog turns the right way but immediately fades (scallops) with the wind

[gator]

after extensive study, experience, dvd's, books, and watching other handlers, i'm convinced the only sure fire way to teach a dog to run blinds is to.........................
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.RUN SOME DAMNED BLINDS

gator

[B3]

So Gator.........how did you run them fresh out of TT? Did you just take young trapper out to a big pond with some scented points and a 30 mph wind and run 300 yd down the shores. Just run the blind ?!?!?

Bill