long water entry issues

[gator]

guys, sorry for the delay in getting back to this...been training this a.m.

i REALLY APPRECIATE the posts and thoughts....some i've considered, some i hadn't and will try.

Is the only problem the bugging and the one no-go or is the no-go chronic?

When he goes what does he do? Get in early or totally cheat and not get in? OR does he get in but with nervousness and without momentum.

Does this happen after the long breaks from work as in after your long week or honeymoon? Congrats BTW!!

Help me some.................

Troy

troy, you pretty much nailed what's going on (in some fashion anyhow)...probably cause we've talked about this

anyhow, to help some and add to maybe some knowledge, i'll give you more pertaining to what's going on....man, i HATE talking bad about my boys, but this seems to be a serious issue w/ trapper.

no-goes are NOT chronic but the bugging (amoung other things that i'll discuss are).

what he does when he leaves is the heart of the issue IMHO....in my eyes (and sam's too) he's doing whatever he can to get out of the work. he bugs, he'll flare one way or the other (avoiding the entry altogether), and when he's actually IN THE WATER, he'll just kinda "float" on a whistle --- almost to say, "i'm stopping but i don't want to"....make sense?

there's times when he's nervous (to the point of panicky) on water blinds....his momentum sucks to start, but will gradually pick up if no whistle blows, again, telling me, he's just real unsure about what he's suppose to do.

ALL OF THIS, and i mean ALL OF IT, occurs on long water entrys when running blinds......throw a mark w/ a long entry, no problem. run a blind at the bank where the only answer is to get in, no problem........give him a decision to make on a long entry --> he's almost working harder to NOT enter.

let me give ya'll 2 different scenarios that occured today to show how much of a contrast i'm dealing w/.

1) land series.

we placed 5 stickmen out in a field of rolling hills. we threw a triple, w/ 2 others there short just to make the dogs focus long. flier for go bird. these were tight tight, w/ additional stickmen that could cause issues. trapper flat out front footed every mark. after the marks, we placed a land blind whose line was about 5 ft off a stickman. trapper looks out, no bugging, and one whistles the blind carrying an unbelievable initial line past the gun kickin grass on the stickman.....honestly, out of the 3 big dogs, trapper looked better than them all.

i say all this to show how he handles land blinds --- fully attentive, no confidence issues, working as a team.

2) 4 water blinds ---- BIG blinds. i'll admit one was probably over his head a touch.

first blind, 65 yd entry, hit a sliver of water, miss a point, up on land.

second blind, another 65-70 yds to water, long swim, over island and a shoreline on the backside to the dam/bumpers (this is the one in hindsight, he wasn't quite ready for).

third, same entry from same spot, but line about 25 degrees off the other one.....angle entry, up on point, angle exit, HUGE swim fighting the wind.

fourth, longer entry that i shortened as it was a "no see um" to the water. small swim across a cove, up a steep bank to blind.

the first and fourth blinds, after being kicked off and handled through bad initial lines, were great blinds.

the second was a fight all the way, had to bring him back to the island twice and fought our way through it (wish i hadn't run him on it).

the third was again a fight, but not as bad which i found enjoyable.

all of them saw him bug at the line and take poor POOR initial lines. sam commented on what i was thinking ---> he's flat out avoiding the work, as evidenced by his attitude at the line.

there's such a stark contrast in land and water situations, that i've having trouble figuring out what he needs.

on marks of any kind, he sits, watches unbelievably, is extremely focused and only AND I MEAN ONLY moves from one mark to the next w/ his head/eyes ---> sam showed me a drill that really helped me/him/us w/ this and has been a great benefit to gauge.....chip's seen this and can validate the dog.

land blinds, he works w/ me. water blinds = no confidence, and just an overall aversion to the work.....i can't figure it.

sorry for how long this post became but this is something i'm having to work out and need to see this in print......this has been a dog that has had trouble dealing w/ anything new (even marking concepts) but once he gets it, he REALLY gets it.........but, i'm having trouble getting in his head on this one.

please, keep the thoughts coming, thanks, gator

[gator]

got it kelly and returned.

pm's seem to be back to the old style as i had some in there from before the change over.

gator

[Copiah Creek]

Hang in there gator , you will work through it , i have a female that is flawless on land , marks and blinds , runs there and back like the devil himself is after her . Anything within 30 yards of water she hits it like a rocket (BIG) water entry , back her off the water to 150 she kicks off just like normal , the closer she gets to the water her transmition starts slipping , by the time she is at the water my pup has more drive . Once she is in the water she is fine , just something about looking out at the big water i guess .

[BrettG]

I agree with Travis, I had the same problem with one of mine. Go to edge of water and run pattern. Back up run again. I would do as many of these in different locations for a while. You can always get back to cold blinds once the confidence and momentum is back. The bugging and lack of enthusiasm to do this work is his way of saying I don't feel real good about what you want me to do. You go through the same transition time when you move from splash marks to up the bank marks.

[Meeka]

we talked about the cheatin issue and about my question, which was difficulty of blind work with this issue.

Just thinkin outloud here on what could make a dog get uncertain/cunfused/whatever about gettin in the water on a blind, considerin the level dog you have. Say you are workin on a remote entry water blind where the angled entry is thin and he starts fat and you CORRECT to get him to take thin and somehow that sticks in his head, cause maybe he got steered away from the water.

I think you already got it figured out. Remember somebody like me who aint got much to work with and uses recall . . . . on a young dog . . . who may not understand why he is being recalled . . .

So the mechanic fixes that with simplification and basics = confidence. You da man!

BTW, there a little more water, not enough, but of course no dux. Good news is all the grass thats grown in.

[B3]

Are most of your water blinds difficult like this? Or are you doing some simple ones too. You are describing monster water blinds for a dog that just turned 2.

I haven't seen him in a while and it was on land and he smoked it like you describe. I wonder if his success on land might even make the water issue worse..... Its big success on land and then you set him up for the big water blind and in his mind its "Oh no! Here we go again" The success on land might even provide a contrast to make him hate the big water blinds more.

I believe I remember Lardy describing a plan for improving a blind attitude by doing ONLY blinds for a while. No marks to provide a contrast. Also, I'd make 'em easier- still long entry but easier. Put a bird at the end instead of bumpers. Hell, make it a shackled duck. Make your standard for holding a line looser. Go back to a standard of letting him carry and enjoy a cast like when he was in transition. Try to limit the number of whistles you're going to have to blow which could sap momentum and confidence.

I think a drill like Travis described would be good.....but also might think of setting up a series of 3-5 simple water blinds that have a big entry. Run them in succession using no collar pressure and let them be a little loose as far as the tightness of the line you hold. Run them again the next day and the next for several days like you would do a tuneup? Usually on tuneups their attitude gets better on successive days in my limited experience.

I realize I may be off base but I'm just throwing out some ideas to consider.

Congratulations BTW,

Bill

[Frank B]

I am usually reluctant to offer advice without seeing the performance of the dog but it appears that you have done a good job in describing the issues. One caveat: My response is predicated on the fact that your dog has successfully undergone decheating drills as part of its training program. Decheating must come first.

I would spend some time trying to find a piece of water that is narrow (15-25 yds) and long. You need to do all this work in the middle of this narrow channel of water so that there is no reason for the dog to run around the bank because it such a longer distance to travel. Put a pile of white bumpers on the far side. Start from edge and run a blind to identify the pile. Back up and repeat. Keep backing up.

At some point you are going to get (1) a slowdown before hitting the water or (2) a flaring trying to avoid the water. Both of these actions warrant a collar correction. If it is a slowdown I would uses a "back" nick "back" correction just as if you were forcing to a pile. A flair would warrant a whistle sit, nick, and cast to pile. Then move up to simplify and repeat.

I would try this exercise first to create the black and white situation that allows the dog to clearly learn what is expected. When you know that the dog understands your expectations then you can try angle entries. Don't do any of these early lessons with big swims. Later you can move to a bigger piece of water and see if your dog can transfer what it has learned to other situations.

One last word. Some dogs will not do long entries no matter what you do. Oh sure, they might get pretty good in training, but when they know they can get away with it they will demonstrate this shortcoming every time. When this is the case, you have to make the decision of whether you can tolerate this shortcoming in light of the other work the dog does. If you can great, if not then it is decision time.

I hope this helps.

Frank

[Duck Chaser]

I agree with bill's thinking after your last post. may be the land marks/blinds contrast could make matters worse.

I'm a believer in re-running a blind on consecutive days to get over any reservation. thats a big difference from "repeating" a blind immediately, imo. I never do that. I've seen a big blind improve, as it should, over 3 or so days, and have seen a much better similar/cold blind soon after. thats proof imo, ymmv..

you've made it clear the ONLY issue is w/ long entry WB's, so, no need to dance around it. I would isolate that tho, with the rest being cheese until you see a change. the white bumper pile gig sounds like a good starting point/drill. and thinking more about his marks..., you may could use his "marks are my bich" attitude (which is good) against this.

how about drop land for a while, make the line to every mark he gets, the same line as the blinds he would avoid, and then some.. mixed with much less stressful cold, and maybe some taught (most long entry) WB's. the idea of birds on blinds, and even bumpers on marks might assist in the tude change. if unable to reverse that contrast, blinds only may be the best option.

and btw, your not talking bad about your boy. stuff happens when you push em. see stuff, fix stuff, move on to other stuff.

[Troy Williams]

A "serious" problem as you say demands attention and I know you choose your words carefully so "serious" means serious......

When dogs are good at their work they know it, he knows when he's doing good and probably loves that feeling. That is what makes marking and the fun of it such a strong contrast to blind work when Blinds turn into not so much fun. By nature land is a strong contrast to water. Some dogs look at water as a barrier, an obstacle and become frustrated with it all on their own. It's in their way and it slows them down.
Add pressure from us to that and then it's magnified, to what degree we can only imagine. Those dogs are generally poor swimmers, they splash, appear to struggle to get the fall, etc. Most see that as drive, I see it as a possible aversion to the water altogether. Ask yourself if your dog was/is a poor swimmer.

Your script of his reaction to whistles does sound panicky. Do tune-ups but very simple ones, short with alot of retrieves. Let him hear 200 whistles over the next few days in the water without correction.

You can also put out alot of blinds (litter the shoreline with bumpers) and if he will get in and simply go, panicky or not, bad attitude or not, then just let him go and swim until he gets one, no pressure, no whistles. Regardless of the line.

AND
1. Blinds only for a few weeks
2. Run multiple blinds always
3. Run multiple blinds with a simple marking diversion per blind. The attitude will bleed over positively.
4. When he "bugs" have a helper Pop-Up at the blind destination. Send him then have helper dissapear. I like these and it easily gets them to focus.
5. Use birds more if possible
6. Do Wagon wheels
7. Do No-No drills
8. Don't put your dog up wet. I like to towel them off and they love that too; It's like a little reward afterward.
9. Stake them out.

Comfort in and around the water is what the training sessions are now geared toward. Not fine lining, cheating lessons etc.

If the dog can mark, then do whatever you can to create the good blind running dog. It will be worth the wait but I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

Troy-Hoping some of that helps.......

[gator]

folks THANKS SO MUCH.

i've got some good stuff to chew on, some REALLY good stuff.

troy, you described trapper.....i've always been worried about his water work b/c he is a poor swimmer. like you mentioned, at first, i thought "man, he's really digging to that bumper" but now i see it as more, much much more than that. trapper will "gorge" on water on swims, particularly long swims......get back and throw it up. he'll lunge, and just overall kick up instead of swim smooth.

told mr. sam this morning that trapper is gonna see nothing but water for a while, as bill jogged my memory and i pulled out my notes and found just what he was referring too........bill, do you remember what dog he was talking about??? i do.....wrote it down = lean mac.

interestingly enough, it was when maxx first came to him and per lardy, he was real "nervous" around tough water entries.

ran the same blinds today as yesterday......things went better as you would expect.

this has been one of the better threads i've been apart of in a while, THANKS folks.....

got some good stuff to think about before tomorrow.

gator