DuckSouth.com

Hmmmmm....once again, wondering WHY I took a few minutes....

First off, you CAN train a dog to do anything without a collar you can with a collar. Since ecollars don't teach **** , that only makes sense. It will take you longer, and in 'most' cases the results won't be as good (Larry McMurrys Pepper dog kinda comes to mind as a notable exception, an 8X UKC Grand Champion thats never had a collar on, one of only 2 8 grand pass dogs alive...wunder whut she'd accomplished WITH a collar!). FT's where run long before modern collar programs, and the things they used before collars weren't much fun for trainers or the dogs. Seems no other tool has as many useful functions to communicate with a dog. Read the chapter on correcting dogs in the classic (1964) Training Retrviers to Handel by D.L. Walters. You'll see modern collars programs are MUCH more verstile, MUCH more humane, and MUCH more effective. You could do it without, but its a longer and tougher road to travel.

Far as the waterdog reader, it's obvious you haven't ever trained a dog with an ecollar. So how can you know this much about it? 'Cowering attitudes' & 'shocking a dog to death' are quotes of yours. If those are the results you got, you did it wrong. My statement about communication to a dog had nothing to do with a whistle, it had to do with my dog understanding EXACTLY what i want, the instant I want it. You teach, you educate, and only then can you correct. If you taught and educated the dog, the correction makes sense, and the dogs knows HOW to get out of a sitution. How do you get your dog to cast off a scented point at a 100 yards, when he doesnt want to? Make a quick swim and smack him with a 40 year old book? Yell pretty please at him? No odds are, you'd cast, and stop, cast and stop, and then run like mad around to him, and then whoop his ass, by that time he has no earthly ideal why you did what you did. A dog in a collar program knows HOW to get out of it. A toot, a nick, and a cast after the first cast refusual.. Oh, I see, I gotta get wet here.... Whats so God awful about that? A dog that understands. Isn't that what any trainer would want?
I know some guys that train without collars. They correct with a slingshot. They dont send a dog outta slingshot range generally. They cant get a dog off a scented point at a 100 yards. It aint their bag. I got no problem with that. But it is my bag. But someone telling me a slingshot is better than an ecollar is a joke.
If the results you get from a 40 year old book is what you want, fine. But don't pass it off as the only way. Its obviously not. I have taken the time to learn other methods, and chose what I felt comfortable with. I have taken the time to do what I've been told is wrong by people that are far better trainers than I will probably ever be, but I felt it was right for me & my dog. Can you say these things? You can't, because of preconcived notions of things you havent experienced. I'm not trying to sell you a collar (I can, btw, but really don't care if you buy one or not), Im trying to tell you that if you close your mind to anything, you're short sighting your dog and yourself. Hell, I've spent hours reading about the $#!+ clicker stuff guys are trying to use now. Not cause Im ever gonna be a clicker trainer, but because their might be something I can learn.
Let me know if you'd like to see the attitudes and burnt up dogs you're scared of, I'd love to train with you sometime. travis

I agree with Goose on this one. I know the collar is not a teacher, but it can augment your training if used correctly. Your dog must know the correction is coming from you...collar conditioning. You dont want pup thinking the grass or the bumber shocked him. Mike Lardy has some good tapes on this- I think it is called "Total Retriever Training." It is very good but it is not for the basic sit, come, type of instruction.
Anyway just my $.o2 worth

Dang glenn, you wuz posting bout larry's pooch while I was eating suppa. Didnt read before I posted. BTW, glenn owns a few of those shocked to death dogs too. All that tailwaggin must be a farce! hehe. travis

I like to think that I am open minded. Maybe my initial words were too stern. I do believe in whatever is best for the dog, and I do agree that you can get a quicker response with the collar. I have seen and worked good ecollar dogs. But, it is my preference not to use them if possible. That's my own opinion. Kinda like republicans and democrats. I have gotten away without it with my last 2 dogs, and I like the challenge. I enjoy the time spent working my pup and figuring him out. I enjoy the satisfaction when you BOTH get it right. I am a novice and don't know allot, but I do know what I like and what my dog enjoys. I know this is a very broad subject that can be argued in a thousand different directions by many people.
Chance- I just got off the phone with Ken and I will be at the Terry Smith on Saturday at 7am. It's my first competition with my 11 month old. We'll run Juniors. We'll both see how he does.
I apologize to Haymaker for getting off the subject.

I had alot of the aforementioned prejudices about ecollars and FT's in general,forcefetching, etc. Notice I used the past tense there, I met a guy last summer was into FTs, went to his place, and was astounded. All my misconceptions were blown out of the water. He broke me of being closed minded. I still dont use a collar on my dogs, but I think that if ole Hardhead needed it then I would. I always thought that to FT a dog, one had to break its spirit, boy was I wrong. These dogs' tails were going 90 to nothing the whole time. The female got corrected once with the collar, that stopped her tail for all of 2 seconds.

My best advice is to think long and hard about what you want your finished dog to do, then choose the training methods accordingly. For me that's a dog that is steady, can mark 2 birds, and will take a line and a cast.

Good luck!

Amen Cptn' Duck it's not the collar, but who is using the collar. It is just like the anti gun people. It is not he gun, but who is using the gun. Ecollars don't ruin dogs people do! I own two dogs and one is hot and hard charging and needs a little correction to make him behave and the other never needs the correction, but he knows the collar is there. I never hunt without them becuase I do not want my dog ruining a hunt that we have worked hard to get.

Looks like I may have opened a BIG can of worms for my first post. I have really enjoyed reading what everyone else thinks regarding the use of ecollars and various training methods. Anyway, I thought that doggie games (FT) maybe a fun thing to go an watch to see what retrievers are capable of with the right training.

As far as what I want my dog to do, I don't want her to spoil a hunt and to fetch the downed birds. After hunting flooded fields and areas where a beaver run can add a little excitement to a guy in waders retrieving a duck, I thought that it would be best for me to get a dog that could do those type of things for me.

No can of worms brother.... You actually got an open dialog going. Looked ugly for a while, but thats ok too, cleared the air. Thats whut discussion fourms are for. When folks can talk, and listen, they can all learn something.
Folks SHOULD be emotional about their dogs. Its the love of the dogs that makes it all worth while. Folks wonder how someone can love a dog, but pinch its ear and shock it, but guess whut, if I didnt love my dog, I'd pick up my own ducks... Be a HELLUVA lot less work than I spend on my dog. hehe.

Kinda easy to see on a thread like this, where so many people have preconcived notions, how we (as hunters) can easily been seen in a bad light by the nonhunting public. Walking in bloody in a resturant, deer in the back of the truck, duck commander videos with close up kill shots in front of inlaws, our own whack em & stack em talk a lot of times, sure makes it easy for someone to take a snapshot of us... Funny the only time we try to portray ourselves as anything else, is to each other! travis

We've been here and done this before. I'll tell you this much, and you can take it to the bank. I am a duck hunter. I have an american bred lab. She was trained to finished level by an English style trainer, (Tom Hamilton). She is a Damn fine hunting lab. She is very well mannered, a has enough drive to most likly do well at the doggie games, (hunt tests). BUT I have seen field trial and she WOULD NOT have a CHANCE against dogs that were trained to do THAT JOB. Guys, we all know that there are exceptions to every rule, but if someone came up to me, (and they have), and asked what dog would I recommend, I would ask what do you want in your dog? If you want a field trial winner, get ready to spend some real money on a American bred, hot as a fire cracker, Black dog, and hire a PRO, (and there are some here) to train and run your dog. On the other hand, If you want a dog to bring your ducks back you can get an American, English, or whatever with the RIGHT BREEDING and he or she will do just fine IF you dedicate the time and money it takes to train and keep on trainging your dog. I believe that is just that simple (or complicated) as the case may be. Haymaker, just define what you want, and you can do it.... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

You know I like to get up in the middle of these juicy ones. Can't believe the Duckmen hadn't jumped feet first in this one. I have had 5 labs. Each one had a different personality, just like children. Some were mild mannered and some hard-headed. I found that the agressive, hyper and most hard-headed dogs perform much better with the ecollar. After they learn that breaking the rules causes mild punishment each time they will break the rules less and less. I would rather use an ecollar every hunt than listen to mr. dog purist out there screaming his head off at a dog that won't mind because he can't control the dog at 30 yards. My 2 cents.

british labs....hhhmmmm

they may be good but its a known fact that the wheels go bad in a short period of time. thats why they move so slow and are so laid back, their damn hips are hurting after
about 2 years. KEEP IT AMERICAN.

Wundered where you'd been in all this...bwhahahahaha. travis