Cast refusals

[Troy Williams]

We're talking about a dog who's not learning casting but one who knows casting and is doing things his way because he thinks he knows better. With the collar you can hit the button and remind him real quick who's in charge. Or you can run out and and do the same thing with a stick. This seems to me another tool to use to get the point across.

Bill-
E-Collars are not for that......Collars are not the tool that keeps us from reading the dog. Nicks, burns, etc are not to show who is in charge. They are simply part of a communication process that TRAINS the dog. A part, a piece, of a command/correction sequence that helps us COMMUNICATE to the dogs when they have made the wrong choice. And most often they must have made the wrong choice at least once already to get the corrrection. That is where the 'reading' of the dog comes in......They MIGHT get an immediate correction sometimes but that decision has to be made based on the education of the dog, level of training and the severity of the offense......

I know you already know this but I don't want anyone to take anything from the thread and use it incorrectly........

Troy

[gator]

as a point of reference, here's a time-line of "fairly" recent posts:

on may 26 @0912, meeka wrote:

The cues on casting got me to thinking and I have been working for a good while on angle backs, as previously we just knew right and left backs and overs. So yesterday evening was the first time we tried remote sends with piles at both anglebacks and at straight back.

Well, I found that the backs we used to be so strong on have turned into angle backs. I got right angle backs out of a right back cast and voce versa. We finallly went through the drill satisfactorily after about 4 rounds (2 bumpers at each of the three piles)...........

seems to me that here, we are focused on teaching a new concept....only a few short weeks ago.

and, on june 8, we have a posts on CR's....

the reason i don't like the drill "AT THIS TIME" are numerous...1) young dog, that hasn't been consistently trained lately (author of posts on words), 2) just a little while ago, we hear about problems encountered while teaching a "new" skill, 3) the way i read this drill, you send to a pile and work to get to that pile (possibly having to HANDLE), then, just at the point of reward (the bumper), you cast off to another as yet unidentified pile....and HOPE you don't have to correct around a bunch of bumpers ------ on a young, inexperienced dog. 4) the dog is showing an inability to handle certain aspects of training (hence the post on CR's) and we're gonna INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY AND CONFUSION?????? REALLY!?!

are we really helping this dog (and being fair in what we ask), by taking a newly learned skill that's not "always" 100% and taking it to the field or upping the difficulty in the yard by casting off piles to other piles that only a short while ago we could only get to w/ "backs" and "overs".....

man, i ain't being a d!ck about it, but i just don't agree w/ the thought process.....the dog don't understand what's expected, plain and simple....hell, just the other day, i read where he was 100% on a cast drill for the FIRST TIME.......assuming, IN THE YARD.

i also ain't kicking dirt on the method and saying it sux (might get deleted by the 'internet sheriff' if we don't ALWAYS post politely), i'm just saying there's other ways to get things accomplished ------ and it AIN'T some miracle drill. and IT AIN'T gonna occur overnight....

all day, everyday, i ask folks about "this" or "that" in dog training....if i have a problem, 100% of the time, those peeps say SIMPLIFY!!! and IMHDAO, that drill don't fulfill that...

only entity that works off the ideology of "if it's not functioning properly, INCREASE the difficulty is the government"......ya'll REALLY gonna use that ideology for dog training and expect a positive outcome?..............just saying

but, if you do, have fun and good luck.........i LOVE YOU ALL

hey, anyone know of some pups for sale......or a truck............or what's the latest on the NBA playoffs.....

just taking up badwidth and posting on the wrong forums, gator

[gator]

oh yeah.....

He knows what the casts are, I guess, cause the last time out we started with casts and he was 100%. But that is the first time he has been absolutly 100% on both angle backs and both backs all at the same time.

now, does he REALLY know the casts and how to take em???? so YOU'RE prepared (after reading FIRST HAND INFO from the author and owner of the dog) to increase difficulty, nick/burn/beatdown, etc b/c YOU ARE POSITIVE the dog is being hard-headed and IT'S TIME TO SHOW WHO'S BOSS???

REALLY?

gator

[Troy Williams]

That's the kicker....A dog may know THE CAST (because you taught it to him in the yard and he did it right every time or almost every time) but does the dog know how to deal with FACTORS of the environment(the field) as well?

Just because dog knows a direction he probably doesn't know how to fight fiactors yet.......

That is why a corrections are reserved and the benefit of the doubt always goes to the dog....................

[gator]

That's the kicker....A dog may know THE CAST (because you taught it to him in the yard and he did it right every time or almost every time) but does the dog know how to deal with FACTORS of the environment(the field) as well?

Just because dog knows a direction he probably doesn't know how to fight fiactors yet.......

That is why a corrections are reserved and the benefit of the doubt always goes to the dog....................

AWESOME POST!!!!

gator

[D. Walker]

Ok guys here it goes.

Not a collar dog - does this mean that it will take longer to teach the dog to accomplish something not necessarily - just means that your methods of correction are more personal to the dog - means lack of time in the correction for the fault that occurred - what does this mean to the dog - dad is going to have to walk out in the field correct me walk back and recast - is this recast from a distance probably not - it is more likely coming from right in front of the dog - what does this mean - dogs are habitual learners - they retain information from routine and training.

So - what happens at this point - well that is for the owner to decide and figure out - does this man more drills like.

Putting the dog through fence drills - double T work - walking baseball - literal casting - three leg - five leg - w- drills - sight blinds destination blinds - Y - drill - who knows - it seems from reading and rereading there is a hole in the training program - or something maybe with the dog.

Maybe it is a little of both......wa the dog rushed - who the hell knows.

In owners original post that Gator quoted is that just a few weeks ago we started to teach the angle cast - yes it has been a short time - the owner is training speratic - what does this mean - means in the dogs mind one day dad you made me do this particular task - well I sat for a few days and got the mid set that I could just be a dog for a few days - what does this mean - it will probably take longer working on the same task for several days weeks months sessions - maybe.

When I am teaching a dog to handle there are several steps that take place one the foundation has to be there and the dog has to have the tools to carry out the particular task that is asked - what does this mean - I mix my training up - if a dog is succeeding at one task well we throw some new stuff in - everything that I do goes to something bigger.

You may not like the casting off ne pile to another - I really do not care - I guess that is why the dogs are at 90 % this year - who knows - I just do what works for the dogs and myself.

Like I say this is not an exact science - it is dog training - I still think that there are two factors - one being the factors in the field, these factors are creating a mental block - ok you have been working on angle casts for a short time - short time equals short results - maybe back up a little fix the holes then apply.

If you would like a detail description of some drills and a full defenition then shoot me a PM with a fax number and will send them to you - if you do not like them well throw them away.

Someone posted the trust factor with handling from one pile to another - sure there is a trust factor with everything especially blind work - the dog has to come to realize that when sent from A to get to B there is going to be something there - it is called confidence - this brings me baclk to the casting off one pile to another - the dogs that I do this with are the dogs that like to think for themselves - what does this do to a dog - does not knock confidence down a bit - the other type of dog that I like to do this with is a dog that will not cast off a poison bird - why it is close and personal it is black and white - at some point an time all the dogs are exposed to it.

It is like discipline casting - the same freaking idea - OK here it goes - why the hell teach discipline casting then if it is so bad - I am assumin that those that discriminate against it do not teach discipline casting - think about it.

Why the hell teach secondary selection to dogs - taking the reward out not getting hte go bird, but being pulled to go to another same freaking difference.

Why the hell do we teach poison birds - pull the dog off the mark and go do a blind is that a reward - no think like a dog you are totally taking the natural prey drive out of focus.

Why teach a dog bulldogs - mark thown out to a dog in route to another mark - I tell you what that damn drill works - think about it and again it is an advanced drill - I think I will keep doing it.

Now that I think about it why the hell should I even FF my dog - it is something negative - why the heck even train dogs period - hell I am selling all my chit today and I am going to quit hunting - killing birds is negative to at least in some peoples minds.

Well Enough preaching - talk to you guys later.

David

[gator]

David, i swear to God i don't know why you get so upset about this...i ain't saying it's a bad deal.....

i'm just trying to figure out WHY anyone would want to increase difficulty on a dog that's NOT performing to task RIGHT NOW....and by task, it evens looks like getting the correct initial line off a cast in the yard has been giving the dog trouble...

you said, everything to do BUILDS - or something like that......w/ a dog that is having trouble actually TAKING A CORRECT CAST INITIALLY, is it building in "good faith" by increasing the 'pressure'??? i dunno, you're the "expert".

IMHO, this particular exercise is NOT a black and white issue, esp w/ a dog that's having trouble actually taking a correct angle initially....

why not clean it up, give a cast that equals getting a reward (bumper/bird), then as the skills and confidence increase, add your drill...THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

look at the post: just recently 100% in yard setting, has been training sporatic and having trouble in the field. hell it wasn't too long ago meeka was gonna "just throw up both arms and forget the spin for a STRAIGHT BACK"...$hit man, it's 99 "@#$%#" degree's here w/ 800% humidity right now, that's gonna lead to confusion and frustration and sloppiness both from man and dog....is THIS drill RIGHT NOW really appropriate??? again, i dunno, your the "expert".

gator

[B3]

Meeka,

Only you know at the time if its confusion or a willful refusal. If its confusion the answer for me is simplify the task and scoot up close to the dog. If its blatant refusal of a known command then obviously its a different story.

Troy,

The use of collar correction or "sorting out" that I was reffering to was not for a confused dog or one who does not know what he's being asked to do. I mainly train alone so I don't get a good feel for how much others correct. My typical response to an obvious CR is 1st give dog benefit of the doubt and TOOT-recast. 2nd time TOOT-callin a bit and recast. 3rd time SIT-NICK-SIT and recast. If after SIT-NICK-SIT he takes a perfect cast I feel pretty sure he knew what was asked all along and was willfully refusing. In that case I feel reassured that I gave the appropriate correction. When running a set of blinds I may never hit the button in a session and since he's young I don't hold a real tight line or have many factors enroute.

Not trying to hijack here but is this in line with a reasonable standard for use of indirect pressure?

Meekas dog last time I saw in the spring seems to know about casting and handling but maybe not well enough to do the tasks asked? Hard to know over the net. Seems like the advice falls into 2 camps depending on what the dogs state of mind is.

If he doesn't know the task teach more and simplify. If he does then enforce the standard. Either way seems like great advice from all sides. It just depends on whether the dog knows what he's supposed to do to determine which good advice to follow.

[D. Walker]

I am not upset - just tells me that you are not paying attention to what the heck is posted - If you look I posted that there may be holes and several basic drills - but it is funny that one drill so many do not like so do not do it - everyone is entitled to an opinion - now take a look and see the basic drills that are posted - basic to advanced - I would liek to see the dog and see first hand what is going on is it with the dog - training or what.

David

[eastwoods]

One more opinion from reading the original post again.

I'm assuming it takes Meeka three or more casts to get the dog to cast the way he wants.

If the dog knows the cast; that is, you have taught it in the yard. What are you going to do in the field?

Dwalker explains rather well how to teach casting, all should heed his advice. Very sound, innovative, and on track with a vision to improve specific types of dogs based on the dog. But how will you handle a cast refusal.

If you teach correctly you will never have any problems or so the theory goes, so Meeka, stop now and go back to the yard. It's far harder to stop a bad habit than to create a good habit. That's probably the best advice I can give you.

Once you have fully taught the casts, how will you enforce them in the field? That's the 64 million dollar question.

I gave you two approaches, one was leave the dog the other was run out there and beat the dog.

Other tools you could use that have been described are call the dog back which I don't do for cast refusals, but only for avoiding the initial line/cheating/fighting factors.

Another tool was what your doing now, attrition/blowing 3-5 whistles until the dog does what you want and hope the dog finally understands it's you who knows where the bird is. This is building the bad habit but may work itself out or not, may take years.

Another tool was waiting longer after the whistle.

Another tool I use after a cast refusal is that I always blow a sit whistle and then whistle the dog in a little bit, blow a sit whistle again and cast. This tells the dog something that it better take the right cast if practiced. I think it works anyway.

After reading all of this, typing again, my 2 cents are stop running blinds and teach the casts. Do simple blinds so that the casts work when you transition to the field.

This last comment will sure raise a lot of eyebrows, but think about it seriously. How many of you know the old time trialers that trained before collars? That's who you want to talk to. They will tell you it took longer and they started with shorter blinds and progressed. Why? Because you can not enforce anything at a distance unless your in great shape and have a good pair of tennies on. But seriously they went slow and short. Us collar people build momentum first on long pattern blinds and then throw in obstacles like a bird boy to the known memory blinds to get in a few handles. But we can enforce anything we want at any distance.

I don't think you can train exactly the same way as the collar people do. That's why I said quit the dog every time he takes a wrong cast. I would bet after three times of you quitting and fun is over for the day the dog would take the right cast on the fourth blind. What if it doesn't work? What's the harm.

I'm convinced a noncollar dog takes longer and you should use far less pressure. When you run out there the dog doesn't know why. Noncollar dogs should start with shorter distances and you should progress to long which is contrary to collar dogs. Finally, noncollar dogs that handle perfectly are generally slower dogs because you started short and progressed to longer blinds as the dogs handling progressed.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Differing views are welcome.

By the way the dog I now own and hunt with is a noncollar dog, and I have known a lot of old time trialers that didn't use a collar.

I want to ask one question. Meeka are you wanting a dog to take to a test or trial or do you just want a good hunting dog that handles. If the latter then my response would be slighly different.

[gator]

gee dave, i thought i DID read the dam posts........ALL of em. in fact, i even went back a few weeks b/c i KNEW where we've been w/ this and were we may be going....

no, i didn't read your next to last post.....SUMBITCH was dam near a page....BUT, i think i got the gist.....teach and build - yada yada....which is WHY i can't figure out the logic of adding MORE to a skill that's NOT YET KNOWN TO BEGIN W/....that's all. PERIOD! end of story.

the drill is fine and something that would benifit ALOT of dogs.....but, IMHO, NOT this dog..............................NOT NOW....

oh, and Dave, i HAVE seen this dog....YOU haven't...hmmm

just trying to see the forrest for the frickin trees, gator

[D. Walker]

Well then I guess with your guidance the dog will be doing well.

Guess I will be looking for a report shortly - keep me posted.

Yada - Yada - yada - if you have seen the dog well then there is no sense in asking for help it should have been givin then.....yada - yada - yada.

[eastwoods]

One more reply for gator's description regarding my method of ...........

........... quitting on the dog.

If you have a trainable non-collar dog and you are a good trainer, and the dog takes the wrong cast I would blow a sit whistle and walk back to the truck.

My dog will not go yippee and have fun. My dog will know it's in trouble and walk back to the truck with it's tail between it's leg. Now if you don't get that response and the dog does as gator describes, runs free and pees on every tree, it is definetly the wrong approach. I wouldn't try the technique again.

I guess a dog that I would take the time to train would act differently, sorry for the short sightedness.

A non-collar dog is fun to train, but it takes longer. Longer means more drills and more foundation. Longer means a closer sense of working with the handler. The relationship must be stronger because you don't have the power of the button which is what handling is all about. You probably will not have perfect casting for a longer period of time.[/b]

[D. Walker]

Collar dog - cast refusals are givin the benefit of the doubt - first is the dog gets a couple chances - then attrition - then the collar tweet nick tweet - or a no nick tweet - the thing with cast refusals is sometimes you need to over cast with some dogs - a little more body language could help to really define the picture.

Non collar dog - well lots of time patience and repetition - I use to train Amish - when I was 12 we could not afford an e-collar - so it was the old bamboo stick checkcord to the bumper and so forth - then we had to use our imagination a ton. With a non collar dog it would be the walk out and discipline the dog - the thing with that is this - the dog may start to not want to come back to you. This is why I love the e-collar - yes it is a correction but not as personal as going out and whipping some tail.

I use to train with several people that trained with no collar - I have seen both sides of the totum pole - not saying that my way is the only way - just what has brought me success with the dogs - the great thing that god gave us is an imagination so sometimes it helps to use it.

David

[gator]

Well then I guess with your guidance the dog will be doing well.

Guess I will be looking for a report shortly - keep me posted.

Yada - Yada - yada - if you have seen the dog well then there is no sense in asking for help it should have been givin then.....yada - yada - yada.

dude, does the term "pompous ass" mean anything to you...it should, b/c you pretty well fit the description....

the "i've seen him comment" was b/c at least 3 times now, you've said you would like to see the dog in order to help better.....

i don't give out advice as i don't know enough....i've even stated that you've seen more dogs than me, so prolly got a better handle on it.....that's sorta the rub to me, you've seen dogs (many) and may know how to better institute this miracle drill of yours.....i haven't, meeka hasn't, and ain't many others on here that have.....just seems to me that this drill "at this time" may not be the best idea given the situation....

oh well, i'm done w/ it.......i've got nothing to offer, and i think i'll go back to enjoying my dog who's never taken a straight line or correct cast in his life...... ....

BUT, i'm convince this may work for him so i'm gonna start this tues....cept, i'm gonna make him do in while one leg is tied to the other.....that way, it'll make him focus more, and i'll know he's giving me all out effort....

that's the way you train right???? if something ain't sinking in, you increase the difficulty, bwahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahaahhahahaha....

you women have fun, gator