Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:04 pm
My question is, would it be legal to hunt geese on that field period. Would it be considered baiting for geese?
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Legal question for SB or anyone that knows
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:06 pm
If the GW finds one lead shell on any of ya with a teal in possession......you're screwed.......especially when he sprays the duck or runs the detector over it for lead......
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:12 pm
I would have to assume that since geese are migratory birds they would fall under the same guidelines as doves......as long as you are hunting a field that falls in line with the rules and regulations......as long as you only have steel shot on ya....
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:19 pm
Hwy 61, I think you must be a lawyer 
Read the bold print below. If you shoot your geese with steel, put them in the cooler beside you, break open the box of lead dove shot and commence to shooting doves, you have broken the law. You will receive a citation for possession of lead shot while hunting waterfowl.
TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES
CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE
INTERIOR--(Continued)
PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Taking
Sec. 20.21 What hunting methods are illegal?
Migratory birds on which open seasons are prescribed in this part
may be taken by any method except those prohibited in this section. No
persons shall take migratory game birds:
(a) With a trap, snare, net, rifle, pistol, swivel gun, shotgun
larger than 10 gauge, punt gun, battery gun, machinegun, fish hook,
poison, drug, explosive, or stupefying substance;
(b) With a shotgun of any description capable of holding more than
three shells, unless it is plugged with a one-piece filler, incapable of
removal without disassembling the gun, so its total capacity does not
exceed three shells. This restriction does not apply during a light-
goose-only season (lesser snow and Ross' geese) when all other waterfowl
and crane hunting seasons, excluding falconry, are closed while hunting
light geese in Central and Mississippi Flyway portions of Alabama,
Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky,
Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota,
Tennessee, Texas, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
(c) From or by means, aid, or use of a sinkbox or any other type of
low floating device, having a depression affording the hunter a means of
concealment beneath the surface of the water;
(d) From or by means, aid, or use of any motor vehicle, motor-driven
land conveyance, or aircraft of any kind, except that paraplegics and
persons missing one or both legs may take from any stationary motor
vehicle or stationary motor-driven land conveyance;
(e) From or by means of any motorboat or other craft having a motor
attached, or any sailboat, unless the motor has been completely shut off
and/or the sails furled, and its progress therefrom has ceased:
Provided, That a craft under power may be used to retrieve dead or
crippled birds; however, crippled birds may not be shot from such craft
under power except in the seaduck area as permitted in subpart K of this
part;
(f) By the use or aid of live birds as decoys; although not limited
to, it shall be a violation of this paragraph for any person to take
migratory waterfowl on an area where tame or captive live ducks or geese
are present unless such birds are and have been for a period of 10
consecutive days prior to such taking, confined within an enclosure
which substantially reduces the audibility of their calls and totally
conceals such birds from the sight of wild migratory waterfowl;
(g) By the use or aid of recorded or electrically amplified bird
calls or sounds, or recorded or electrically amplified imitations of
bird calls or sounds. This restriction does not apply during a light-
goose-only season (lesser snow and Ross' geese) when all other waterfowl
and crane hunting seasons, excluding falconry, are closed while hunting
light geese in Central and Mississippi Flyway portions of Alabama,
Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky,
Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota,
Tennessee, Texas, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
(h) By means or aid of any motordriven land, water, or air
conveyance, or any sailboat used for the purpose of or resulting in the
concentrating, driving, rallying, or stirring up of any migratory bird;
(i) By the aid of baiting, or on or over any baited area, where a
person knows or reasonably should know that the area is or has been
baited. However, nothing in this paragraph prohibits:
(1) the taking of any migratory game bird, including waterfowl,
coots, and cranes, on or over the following lands or areas that are not
otherwise baited areas--
(i) Standing crops or flooded standing crops (including aquatics);
standing,
[[Page 39]]
flooded, or manipulated natural vegetation; flooded harvested croplands;
or lands or areas where seeds or grains have been scattered solely as
the result of a normal agricultural planting, harvesting, post-harvest
manipulation or normal soil stabilization practice;
(ii) From a blind or other place of concealment camouflaged with
natural vegetation;
(iii) From a blind or other place of concealment camouflaged with
vegetation from agricultural crops, as long as such camouflaging does
not result in the exposing, depositing, distributing or scattering of
grain or other feed; or
(iv) Standing or flooded standing agricultural crops where grain is
inadvertently scattered solely as a result of a hunter entering or
exiting a hunting area, placing decoys, or retrieving downed birds.
(2) The taking of any migratory game bird, except waterfowl, coots
and cranes, on or over lands or areas that are not otherwise baited
areas, and where grain or other feed has been distributed or scattered
solely as the result of manipulation of an agricultural crop or other
feed on the land where grown, or solely as the result of a normal
agricultural operation.
(j) While possessing shot (either in shotshells or as loose shot for
muzzleloading) other than steel shot, or bismuth-tin (97 parts bismuth:
3 parts tin with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-iron (40
parts tungsten: 60 parts iron with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or
tungsten-polymer (95.5 parts tungsten: 4.5 parts Nylon 6 or 11 with <1
percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-matrix (95.9 parts tungsten:
4.1 parts polymer with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tin (99.9
percent tin with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-nickel-iron
(50% tungsten: 35% nickel: 15% iron with <1 percent residual lead), or
such shot approved as nontoxic by the Director pursuant to procedures
set forth in Sec. 20.134, provided that this restriction applies only to
the taking of Anatidae (ducks, geese, (including brant) and swans),
coots (Fulica americana) and any species that make up aggregate bag
limits during concurrent seasons with the former in areas described in
Sec. 20.108 as nontoxic shot zones, and further provided that:
(1) Tin shot (99.9 percent tin with 1 percent residual lead) is
legal as nontoxic shot for waterfowl and coot hunting for the 2000-2001
hunting season only.
Read the bold print below. If you shoot your geese with steel, put them in the cooler beside you, break open the box of lead dove shot and commence to shooting doves, you have broken the law. You will receive a citation for possession of lead shot while hunting waterfowl.
TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES
CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE
INTERIOR--(Continued)
PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Taking
Sec. 20.21 What hunting methods are illegal?
Migratory birds on which open seasons are prescribed in this part
may be taken by any method except those prohibited in this section. No
persons shall take migratory game birds:
(a) With a trap, snare, net, rifle, pistol, swivel gun, shotgun
larger than 10 gauge, punt gun, battery gun, machinegun, fish hook,
poison, drug, explosive, or stupefying substance;
(b) With a shotgun of any description capable of holding more than
three shells, unless it is plugged with a one-piece filler, incapable of
removal without disassembling the gun, so its total capacity does not
exceed three shells. This restriction does not apply during a light-
goose-only season (lesser snow and Ross' geese) when all other waterfowl
and crane hunting seasons, excluding falconry, are closed while hunting
light geese in Central and Mississippi Flyway portions of Alabama,
Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky,
Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota,
Tennessee, Texas, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
(c) From or by means, aid, or use of a sinkbox or any other type of
low floating device, having a depression affording the hunter a means of
concealment beneath the surface of the water;
(d) From or by means, aid, or use of any motor vehicle, motor-driven
land conveyance, or aircraft of any kind, except that paraplegics and
persons missing one or both legs may take from any stationary motor
vehicle or stationary motor-driven land conveyance;
(e) From or by means of any motorboat or other craft having a motor
attached, or any sailboat, unless the motor has been completely shut off
and/or the sails furled, and its progress therefrom has ceased:
Provided, That a craft under power may be used to retrieve dead or
crippled birds; however, crippled birds may not be shot from such craft
under power except in the seaduck area as permitted in subpart K of this
part;
(f) By the use or aid of live birds as decoys; although not limited
to, it shall be a violation of this paragraph for any person to take
migratory waterfowl on an area where tame or captive live ducks or geese
are present unless such birds are and have been for a period of 10
consecutive days prior to such taking, confined within an enclosure
which substantially reduces the audibility of their calls and totally
conceals such birds from the sight of wild migratory waterfowl;
(g) By the use or aid of recorded or electrically amplified bird
calls or sounds, or recorded or electrically amplified imitations of
bird calls or sounds. This restriction does not apply during a light-
goose-only season (lesser snow and Ross' geese) when all other waterfowl
and crane hunting seasons, excluding falconry, are closed while hunting
light geese in Central and Mississippi Flyway portions of Alabama,
Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky,
Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota,
Tennessee, Texas, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
(h) By means or aid of any motordriven land, water, or air
conveyance, or any sailboat used for the purpose of or resulting in the
concentrating, driving, rallying, or stirring up of any migratory bird;
(i) By the aid of baiting, or on or over any baited area, where a
person knows or reasonably should know that the area is or has been
baited. However, nothing in this paragraph prohibits:
(1) the taking of any migratory game bird, including waterfowl,
coots, and cranes, on or over the following lands or areas that are not
otherwise baited areas--
(i) Standing crops or flooded standing crops (including aquatics);
standing,
[[Page 39]]
flooded, or manipulated natural vegetation; flooded harvested croplands;
or lands or areas where seeds or grains have been scattered solely as
the result of a normal agricultural planting, harvesting, post-harvest
manipulation or normal soil stabilization practice;
(ii) From a blind or other place of concealment camouflaged with
natural vegetation;
(iii) From a blind or other place of concealment camouflaged with
vegetation from agricultural crops, as long as such camouflaging does
not result in the exposing, depositing, distributing or scattering of
grain or other feed; or
(iv) Standing or flooded standing agricultural crops where grain is
inadvertently scattered solely as a result of a hunter entering or
exiting a hunting area, placing decoys, or retrieving downed birds.
(2) The taking of any migratory game bird, except waterfowl, coots
and cranes, on or over lands or areas that are not otherwise baited
areas, and where grain or other feed has been distributed or scattered
solely as the result of manipulation of an agricultural crop or other
feed on the land where grown, or solely as the result of a normal
agricultural operation.
(j) While possessing shot (either in shotshells or as loose shot for
muzzleloading) other than steel shot, or bismuth-tin (97 parts bismuth:
3 parts tin with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-iron (40
parts tungsten: 60 parts iron with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or
tungsten-polymer (95.5 parts tungsten: 4.5 parts Nylon 6 or 11 with <1
percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-matrix (95.9 parts tungsten:
4.1 parts polymer with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tin (99.9
percent tin with <1 percent residual lead) shot, or tungsten-nickel-iron
(50% tungsten: 35% nickel: 15% iron with <1 percent residual lead), or
such shot approved as nontoxic by the Director pursuant to procedures
set forth in Sec. 20.134, provided that this restriction applies only to
the taking of Anatidae (ducks, geese, (including brant) and swans),
coots (Fulica americana) and any species that make up aggregate bag
limits during concurrent seasons with the former in areas described in
Sec. 20.108 as nontoxic shot zones, and further provided that:
(1) Tin shot (99.9 percent tin with 1 percent residual lead) is
legal as nontoxic shot for waterfowl and coot hunting for the 2000-2001
hunting season only.
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:23 pm
Didnt know they made a lead detector ?
Now the complete absence of steel might present a problem.....but I guess you could argue that you scared the critter to death with your shots.....that the guy down the road popped him with the lead....
Starting to get far fetched now....but remember....In America ...in a criminal case...the jury must be convinced....beyond any reasonable doubt....
The warden/govt has the duty to prove the case....its not your obligation to disprove your guilt ! Now with that said..you get caught with a box of buffered Super X #4 lead shot....and you got 3 teal in your hand...still warm...bleedin....and they are full of #4 buffered lead and nothing else....Chances are ..you are goin down...
I do think if folks had the money or time to put the "Full Court Johnny Cochran press" on....that the Man would have a mighty tough time winning in court...
I would bet that more than 90% confess after some agressive interrogation...that more than 90% of the remaining 10% are caught red handed or observed committing the offense and that the remainder (1%) pay the fine and move on...even knowing they could beat the charge...
The govt counts on 95% of the people paying the fine and admitting guilt...If 95% demanded a trial and took each case to a jury....they would have a mighty big problem ! It would take years to clear the docket !
Any wardens on the site who have actually testified at a jury trial in US District Court ?? I would love to hear about it if they have.... esp what the outcome was....were
Now the complete absence of steel might present a problem.....but I guess you could argue that you scared the critter to death with your shots.....that the guy down the road popped him with the lead....
Starting to get far fetched now....but remember....In America ...in a criminal case...the jury must be convinced....beyond any reasonable doubt....
The warden/govt has the duty to prove the case....its not your obligation to disprove your guilt ! Now with that said..you get caught with a box of buffered Super X #4 lead shot....and you got 3 teal in your hand...still warm...bleedin....and they are full of #4 buffered lead and nothing else....Chances are ..you are goin down...
I do think if folks had the money or time to put the "Full Court Johnny Cochran press" on....that the Man would have a mighty tough time winning in court...
I would bet that more than 90% confess after some agressive interrogation...that more than 90% of the remaining 10% are caught red handed or observed committing the offense and that the remainder (1%) pay the fine and move on...even knowing they could beat the charge...
The govt counts on 95% of the people paying the fine and admitting guilt...If 95% demanded a trial and took each case to a jury....they would have a mighty big problem ! It would take years to clear the docket !
Any wardens on the site who have actually testified at a jury trial in US District Court ?? I would love to hear about it if they have.... esp what the outcome was....were
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:24 pm
I guess they don't let ya hunt em with a pistol just to keep it fair?
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:34 pm
Wingman...I respectfully disagree IF....I shoot the geese with steel (no lead in possession at the time I TAKE the geese)....put them in my cooler...(this is important) I STOP GOOSE HUNTING...and I start dove hunting with lead shot, that is NOW IM MY POSSESSION...
Game warden walks up ands says...show me the geese..I do...he says why you hunting geese with lead shot..and I say..Im not, nor was I at the time I shot the geese.... I explain that I did not posess the lead shot at the time I shot the geese, that once I had finished shootin em, that I began to possess lead shot and hunting doves.
Now..unless he saw me possess the lead shot at the time I took the geese....he cannot win that case before a jury. He (not I) has the burden of proving that I possessed lead shot at the time I took the geese....the fact that I had the lead shot later in the day, while I was dove hunting would not prove that I possessed lead at the time I took the geese !
Will he give me a ticket..of course he will....does the fact that he gives me a ticket mean that I am guilty of the offense charged ? Of course NOT///
If you remember the old points system...it is similar to whether you shot that 90 pt hen as your first bird or your last bird...unless the warden was standing next to you when you picked it up...it would be sort of hard for him to know now wouldnt it ? Unless of course you confess !!
Game warden walks up ands says...show me the geese..I do...he says why you hunting geese with lead shot..and I say..Im not, nor was I at the time I shot the geese.... I explain that I did not posess the lead shot at the time I shot the geese, that once I had finished shootin em, that I began to possess lead shot and hunting doves.
Now..unless he saw me possess the lead shot at the time I took the geese....he cannot win that case before a jury. He (not I) has the burden of proving that I possessed lead shot at the time I took the geese....the fact that I had the lead shot later in the day, while I was dove hunting would not prove that I possessed lead at the time I took the geese !
Will he give me a ticket..of course he will....does the fact that he gives me a ticket mean that I am guilty of the offense charged ? Of course NOT///
If you remember the old points system...it is similar to whether you shot that 90 pt hen as your first bird or your last bird...unless the warden was standing next to you when you picked it up...it would be sort of hard for him to know now wouldnt it ? Unless of course you confess !!
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:42 pm
I agree that he will write the ticket regardless. Don't think you will ever see a jury on this one, just hope it aint' Judge JB. Just not worth the trouble, regardless what the final outcome might be.
Now after reading that quote, there is no doubt in my mind that you have or will take game illegally some time in the past or near future, and on top of that your a hen killer...........
hwy61DuckCamp wrote:If you remember the old points system...it is similar to whether you shot that 90 pt hen as your first bird or your last bird...unless the warden was standing next to you when you picked it up...it would be sort of hard for him to know now wouldnt it ? Unless of course you confess !!
Now after reading that quote, there is no doubt in my mind that you have or will take game illegally some time in the past or near future, and on top of that your a hen killer...........
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:49 pm
Dont get me wrong..Im not saying I would do it.... nor should anyone else
Merely answering a ? truthfully.
Just because you can get away with taking a $20 bill out of someone's wallet doesnt mean you should do it.....
Purely an exercise in abstract analysis.......
Sort of like...What if Paris and Nicole Hilton show up at your Duck Camp....should you a- invite them in... b- ask them to wait outside while you tidy up ,,,,c mess your pants...or d..all of the above....Just because it isnt gonna happen, doesnt mean you cant think about what you would do if it did happen ? LOL
Merely answering a ? truthfully.
Just because you can get away with taking a $20 bill out of someone's wallet doesnt mean you should do it.....
Purely an exercise in abstract analysis.......
Sort of like...What if Paris and Nicole Hilton show up at your Duck Camp....should you a- invite them in... b- ask them to wait outside while you tidy up ,,,,c mess your pants...or d..all of the above....Just because it isnt gonna happen, doesnt mean you cant think about what you would do if it did happen ? LOL
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:49 pm
LOL! Lawyers are like 'possums, no matter how you try to avoid them, they always show up in your sets.
"Prima facie" comes to mind.
"Prima facie" comes to mind.
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:55 pm
well, according to what you just said.....
let's say i am hunting in my hole and i have been shooting steel shot and killed my limit of ducks.... i am driving my atv out of the hole when i get stopped by a GW.... he finds lead shot on me.... at this point i reach back and pull out two squirrel which i killed after finishing my duck hunt.... i shot the squirrel with lead and explain to the GW how it happened.... do you mean to tell me that i can expect to win that case in court??
if you say yes to that.... then hell..... what would stop anyone from shooting lead at ducks and then just telling the GW they were squirrel/rabbit hunting "hoping he doesn't have a detector" ????????
the burden is on the GW to prove that the lead shot was used in the taking of the ducks??? he can never win that case then unless he actually walks up on you in your hole????
let's say i am hunting in my hole and i have been shooting steel shot and killed my limit of ducks.... i am driving my atv out of the hole when i get stopped by a GW.... he finds lead shot on me.... at this point i reach back and pull out two squirrel which i killed after finishing my duck hunt.... i shot the squirrel with lead and explain to the GW how it happened.... do you mean to tell me that i can expect to win that case in court??
if you say yes to that.... then hell..... what would stop anyone from shooting lead at ducks and then just telling the GW they were squirrel/rabbit hunting "hoping he doesn't have a detector" ????????
the burden is on the GW to prove that the lead shot was used in the taking of the ducks??? he can never win that case then unless he actually walks up on you in your hole????
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:08 pm
I believe, and I may be wrong, which I usually am. If you go dove hunting and shoot a few geese or teal with steel shot, then start shooting doves with lead shot, and you have the other birds in question in a cooler, If the wardens know, you need to find better hunting partners(just kidding) you will be given a ticket.!.! How do I know? BEEN THERE DONE THAT! We were using lead shot at the time and didn't even get a ticket for lead shot. Been over a few years and my father was judge in the county in question and the wardens had a change of heart, can't imagine why? Don't try it!! If you do, be sure you know your hunting buddies and hide the coolers really well. We were facing a possible fine of 2500.00 each at the time, and we were minors at the time. This is just my 2 cents worth.
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:23 pm
Another case of "do you know who my daddy is?".
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:40 pm
Yup! But got My A!@ out of a many of a jam! Guess you spent many a night in the CLINK! Just kidding, this really did happen to us though!
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:08 am
I don't plan to shoot those teal illegally. I saw the "party shooting " post and thought I would see who would raise their voice at me. If the teal stick around I am going to hunt them in the morning with all steel shot. Leave the field, clean and perhaps cook the ducks, and return to the field in the afternoon to shoot doves with all lead shot. If a teal flies by in the PM he can consider himself fortunate he wasn't with the morning crowd. I don't hunt illegal ( intentionally anyway). I suppose there is nothing wrong with this plan????