The Recipe for collapse

[Northbigmuddy]

I would have to agree with the "it's about the money/marketing" theory. IMO not every property is going to produce monsters consistently. If you've got 170" 5yr old potential then that's what you've got. Managing for a 200" deer isn't going to be successful without the genetics. John Doe out there wants you to buy his "secret blend" food plot seed in the glossy bag to grow bigger deer. It's a waste. I'm not saying deer management is pointless, just that realistic management may be more fruitful. Then you add in outlaws, idiots, and poor hunting practices. At that point you just flush your management scheme down the drain.

[LawDawg]

It's all according to what you want your place to be. If you want to see a bunch of deer everytime you go, then don't shoot a bunch of does. Just shoot a few to eat. And you will have a lot of deer, and they wont be as healthy as they might could be. You can still grow some nice racks, with the occasional really big deer. If you want the bucks on your place to have the biggest rack they can possibly grow, then you will have to have far fewer deer. If you are managing for 150+ deer, then you won't be seeing a bunch of deer when you hunt.

We have been hammering the does for years, playing catchup from several years of limited harvest. Body weights and antler size had dropped significantly. Which means they didn't have enough food. We are getting back on track and had a stellar season this year. Does are getting hard to come by these days, but that's the way it should be when you are trying to reduce the number of your herd.

this goes hand in hand with people that say "the rut just didn't happen this year" or "it's really late." The places I hunt are managed like crazy and you can set a clock by the rut. the past 5 years I could tell you when I will kill my big deer (or have a chance at him) and can guarantee it will be the same next year. the "peak" may be 2-3 days difference, but that's not when you kill your big deer (but that's a different argument all to itself). I see 2-3 bucks for every doe, which means that when rut hits, the big boys will be out. if you have a billion does, which there is nothing wrong with if you like seeing 40 deer everytime you hunt, you will not see the buck movement you want during the rut.

If you want the best shot of killing big deer, DONT SHOOT YOUNG DEER (even with your bow. all this "he'd be a good one with my bow is BULL FREAKIN *%#^). I don't care if they have a 27 inch main beam and score 180. All these camps make these crazy rules and the deer has to have 4 out of 6 criteria to shoot, blah blah blah. those rules don't work. the members are too dumb and impatient to go through their check list before yanking the trigger.

I've shot tons of deer that wouldn't meet those criteria that are 7.5 year old deer. they needed to be shot. camps would do much better to tell people only shoot 5.5 year old deer and older. the problem with that is it takes restraint and a little whitetail knowledge. Most Billy Bob "de'r camp" brothers have neither.

That's why if I ever have to join a camp, I will make dang sure EVERYONE knows what they are doing. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch.

[GrizwalD]

Just this morning I was having a conversation with a friend that hunts on Anderson Tully land on Steele Bayou. They had by far their worst season. They killed no bucks the camp north of them killed one bigger buck and two youth bucks(they have to be state legal for a youth) the camp south of them only killed one that he knew of and another friend of ours hunts over there and his camp only killed one or two and a youth buck. All of these camps usually kill 7-9 nice bucks a year. He seems to think that the deer are holding up in the thickets. Anderson's Tully came in a few years back and clear cut a 300 yard wide strip running east to west right in the middle of the camp and then 2 years ago clear cut a 40 acre block right behind the camp house. Now these areas are just huge thickets and they also have a strip 300 yards wide that runs north and south that is not a recent cutover but is still just one big thicket. Their deer and hog sightings were way down this year and talking to him this morning he seems to think they are just staying in the thickets. Said several times he caught glimpses of nice deer but they would never come out of the thickets. These camps have been on "big buck" programs for about 10 years now and it has changed several times. Currently they have to have 20" beams or 18" spread. When they went to these guidelines a while back(at the time it may have been 18" beams) I told him they ran the risk of high grading their genetics as they would probably shoot their best genetic carriers as 3 year olds and the less quality genetic carriers may never get shot. Not sure if that is what happened but just a theory of mine. I believe to have a true management program for trophy bucks you need to decide what is a cull for your camp and then only shoot mature bucks and culls not your high quality 3 year olds.

My camp is on steel bayou as well, and is Anderson Tully land as well. We have had a TERRIBLE season. We have killed 6 bucks of which none at over 130" and our doe numbers are down, along with the deer sightings in general being WAY down. We arent sure what the cause is either as all the camps around us are having the exact same issues. ATC did come in and cut 160acres of timber on us last season and a little more that they couldnt get to last season due to rain they finished this fall. Last year a few of our does toward the end of the year had signs of blue tongue and not to mention we havent been able to catch breaks on floods the last 3 years.

[cwink]

I can understand the big bucks staying hidden, but I have yet to understand what is keeping the does hidden.. I saw 1 doe all year and she was 400 yds off. Everything else has been little bucks.. We almost got him a small buck this past week.. Had a chance at one last Monday and this past Saturday afternoon, but just couldn't get him situated in the stand before we scared the bucks off...

Are your food plots being utilized? Are they grazed down to the ground? That will tell you if there are many dear on your property. Camera surveys will also help.

Here is what happens on our club. This may be true for your club. We see a lot of deer on the food plots the first three weeks of season. Then they go nocturnal, including does. We over hunt the food plots which causes a couple of problems. Most of our members do not pay attention to wind direction so they get winded a lot. You will hear stories like this: well three does walked out and all of a sudden they started stomping and snorting and they ran off but I don't know why. If the deer wind you two or three times in a food plot then they will stay out of there until after dark. Or they will show up at odd hours of the day. They will not come out from 4:00pm til dark. Most of our food plots are small and if a deer comes out he may only be 50 yards or less. You have to be still and quiet. If they see or hear you a couple of times then the get even more educated.

We also have a couple of outlaws that live next to us that shoot deer out of their living room windows over a corn pile under a night light. By the end of the season they have pretty much wiped out all the bucks within a two mile radius. You may want to think about who lives close to your property. Ride around at night and see who has night lights in their yard. See if there are feeders under the lights. Ask around and see if any neighbors have heard gunshots during the night.

This is the first year they have been demolished.. Years prior the plots were blowing in the wind.. We are doing a camera survey this year..

[BIG TIMBER]

It's pretty simple, you want big mature bucks, DON'T shoot them at 3 yrs old.

[blkdout]

To go along with what you all are saying I believe some may be from pressure. Deer are seeing a lot more activity in the woods because of game cameras. I think more and more people are using them for a better part of the year and when you are going in checking them 1 a week it's going to push them into an area with less traffic. Just my .02. But have heard a lot of peoe talking about the deer harvest down this year compared to years past

[LawDawg]

It's pretty simple, you want big mature bucks, DON'T shoot them at 3 yrs old.

What do YOU know about killing big deer???

Gotta shoot them IN THE FACE

[pondman]

It's pretty simple, you want big mature bucks, DON'T shoot them at 3 yrs old.

What do YOU know about killing big deer???

Gotta shoot them IN THE FACE

Easy killer, I hear those face shots don't necessarily work out. Bobcats, yes -- deer, not so much.

Pond

[BIG TIMBER]

I don't know anything!! Just all hear say, but I will tell ya, you better start aiming for center mass instead of the face, probably work out better for you!

[Deltaquack]

The whole thing is a money driven ball of crap. If you look back over time people have been killing big deer in this state for ever. The cutover statements are 100% correct of the 3 MOST important things any animal not just deer need to live a cutover gives 2 without a deer even standing up (cover and food). So the only thing he really has to get up to do is drink water. The new fad of genetics is of course driven by what we watch on tv ( me included). Deer are not different than average people and pro athletes, you either have it or you don't. If you kill the son of a 160 ten point when he is 3 years old and he only scores 130 he still has 160 " genes. I maybe wrong but this is my opinion. Sorry for the rant

You are correct but if you kill him at 3 years old and let the smaller ones walk till they are 5 years old or older because they do not have a certain beam length or width which genetics get spread around more?

You are 110% right. These clubs that have beam lengths and width requirements are crazy. I saw some 140-150 inch deer this year with 17" spreads. It makes the most common sense to go by one of two principles: 1)Age or 2)score. You have to also have a variable for culls/management deer. If you have the ability to get rid of that 5 year old that you don't want passing on genes.....do it. Let the others spread their seed. We kill several does every year........but still have 1000 of them running around out there. I still see mature does every hunt. You need them......they are 50% of the genetics of the "Freak".

[Sod Man]

I agree with you delta quack. One of the issues I have and will never understand is these camps where they only allow you to kill one buck the entire year. I can see where this would let every buck have the chance to reach 5.5 years old. But if you have a buck that is a 10" 6 pt at 3.5 years old that weighs 200 lbs chances are he will not be a booner,so why let him reproduce any longer. Now in this idea there maybe a 1 in 100 chance you kill a young deer that just has not developed normally, but the chances are worth taking in my opinion. The biggest issue with 85% of the camps in this state is they are asking members to check for things like age and certain measurements that people have NO IDEA what they are doing because they expect a 5.5 year old MS deer to look like the one Bill Jordan or whoever killed the night before on the outdoor channel.

[peewee]

It's all according to what you want your place to be. If you want to see a bunch of deer everytime you go, then don't shoot a bunch of does. Just shoot a few to eat. And you will have a lot of deer, and they wont be as healthy as they might could be. You can still grow some nice racks, with the occasional really big deer. If you want the bucks on your place to have the biggest rack they can possibly grow, then you will have to have far fewer deer. If you are managing for 150+ deer, then you won't be seeing a bunch of deer when you hunt.

We have been hammering the does for years, playing catchup from several years of limited harvest. Body weights and antler size had dropped significantly. Which means they didn't have enough food. We are getting back on track and had a stellar season this year. Does are getting hard to come by these days, but that's the way it should be when you are trying to reduce the number of your herd.

this goes hand in hand with people that say "the rut just didn't happen this year" or "it's really late." The places I hunt are managed like crazy and you can set a clock by the rut. the past 5 years I could tell you when I will kill my big deer (or have a chance at him) and can guarantee it will be the same next year. the "peak" may be 2-3 days difference, but that's not when you kill your big deer (but that's a different argument all to itself). I see 2-3 bucks for every doe, which means that when rut hits, the big boys will be out. if you have a billion does, which there is nothing wrong with if you like seeing 40 deer everytime you hunt, you will not see the buck movement you want during the rut.

If you want the best shot of killing big deer, DONT SHOOT YOUNG DEER (even with your bow. all this "he'd be a good one with my bow is BULL FREAKIN *%#^). I don't care if they have a 27 inch main beam and score 180. All these camps make these crazy rules and the deer has to have 4 out of 6 criteria to shoot, blah blah blah. those rules don't work. the members are too dumb and impatient to go through their check list before yanking the trigger.

I've shot tons of deer that wouldn't meet those criteria that are 7.5 year old deer. they needed to be shot. camps would do much better to tell people only shoot 5.5 year old deer and older. the problem with that is it takes restraint and a little whitetail knowledge. Most Billy Bob "de'r camp" brothers have neither.

That's why if I ever have to join a camp, I will make dang sure EVERYONE knows what they are doing. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch.

Great post. I haven't killed a buck in three years, not b/c I couldn't I just choose to try to put youth on deer and I want to kill mature bucks. Most camps around our area allow two bucks and most folks think they paid their $$$ they are going to kill their fair share. My hunting buddy and I plant food plots but rarely do we hunt them. Get in the thickets. It's the best of both worlds, food and cover. Sometimes you can only see 40-50 yards but you can see a lot of deer that are very relaxed. My daughter hunts with me know and it has amazed me how much she has picked up these last two years about hunting the right way. We never hunt a stand that the wind is wrong. I knew she was learning when I felt the wind shift and she asked if we should adjust stands due to the wind. Every day during deer season you can look at gas stations and see hunters in their camo filling up. It's crazy. And the point you brought out about the bow is spot on. I have never killed a good deer with a bow. I decided to switch to bow hunting only this year die to my daughter hunting. I saw several bucks most in our camp would have busted but let them pass cause they were 3 yr olds. If you want to kill good bucks you have to let young ones walk (bottom line). Also I wish we could get rid of beams and spread and hunt by age. I have seen our camp (high grade) to the point you will see numerous mature 4-6 points but no one will shoot. I wish we had some management buck tags where the kids could wack them and not count against the members limit. But like you mentioned there are to many that are to impatient to look and will swear a 2 yr old is mature.

[mlj300]

The points the guys make are this:

Only does can give birth to Bucks

More bucks = better chance of having a bigger buck - "genetic freak"

More bucks = more sighting of bucks.


I'm not saying don't shoot does. I think you have to. but I don't think you have to massacre them. a state wildlife biologist told me this" "if I am growing big bucks, I don't even want a doe on my property "

I agree with this to a point. What about heard fitness and carrying capacity though? The King Ranch did a very interesting study on this and determined that good heard fitness and carrying capacity need to be met before genetics are considered. In other words if the bucks with good genetics aren't getting the nutrition they need, they will never grow into "freaks" they will remain basket racks. Now i don't know about the King Ranches' deer studies but i sure do like there trucks.