shooting hens ?

[Bigpoppa]

So duckmen, you are at a higher level than me because you claim you do not shoot hens and i honestly admit to taking an occasional hen and not feeling a bit of remorse. You are in the minority. I agree with a lot you have to say when I read your posts and replies but I do not agree that you are "Hunting at a higher level" than I am. If you don't miss a duck or you can get them to turn and cup when I can't, that is a higher level. Like you said it is a personal choice. And you are sadly mistaken about there being little research done on the subject of shooting hens. I choose to be civil and I am sure you are an excellent hunter and a hell of a guy but you have tried to turn personal preference into an attack on hen killers.
And as far as people being out there for more than just to kill a limit. I am out there for the fellowship and to enjoy Gods creations just as much as the next guy but lets face it we want to kill ducks when we go.
I do my part in conservation in a lot of ways. I just beleive that if hen killing was a big problem the feds would make limits on them tighter. And bfore you say it I know the government has been known to fail to step in and do things from time to time.
My point is:I have no problem with just killing drakes and I try to when I can. But If I come back to camp and my limit is with Greenheads and you have a hen or 2 it does not make you a higher level hunter than me.

[4-EYED GADWALL]

All I know is we got 47 more days . 47X6= 282

So the way I got it figured I got 282 more ducks to kill in MS.

I don't know how many more days I'll hunt in AR. But I figure at least 3 days this week anyway. Hens or no hens. [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

[Bigpoppa]

No cursing. Good job, 4 eye.

[Bigpoppa]

I got ahead of myself above duckmen.

I meant to say that if you come back with a limit and so do I, just because I have a couple of hens, you are not a higher level of hunter than me. We just have different views.

[MSDuckmen]

Express and Magnum,
You guys have taken this out of context.

If I have chosen not to shoot hens, then I have restricted myself thus putting myself on a different level than you.

I feel that is a higher level, sorry if that offends you that was not the intention.
And Express I really didn't want to have to do this but I will.

The study:
Mate Loss in winter affects reproduction of mallards was done by Barbara A Lercel MDWF, Richard M Kaminski MDWF, and Robert Cox USGS

The study was published in the Journal of Wildlife Management 63(2):621-629
I would suggest you get a copy and review and then come back and tell me taking hens is not a problem. that's part of that mega money at work that you say we paided.

Guys I don't down you for killing hens, it's legal. But I don't like the idea that you take them simply because it is legal.

It is legal for me to call you a fat pompus pig but that don't make it right. That is exactly why I feel, that I stand above most hunters when it comes to harvesting ducks.

Take it as you will but it was not a be-littling statement.


better days

[magnum]

Somebody is full of himself...


MAG

[4-EYED GADWALL]

Duck men you don't stand above **** !! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

[MSDuckmen]

4-EYED GADWALL
Just for that I'm taking you off my Christmas list. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

And yes, you two boys - I do. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[feedcall]

Just some food for thought without getting too involved in this. We shoot does because they will malnourish themselves in a given area if over populated. Biologists come to my property, run some tests in different areas and tell me how many does he thinks should be killed. Mallard hens are not in any danger of overpopulating(if you couldn't tell from the last two weeks of hunting)or malnurishing themselves. They do produce 6 to 12 chicks per brood though. So I encourage people that I am hunting with on a good day just let the hen go, some more groups will be around. I don't make a big deal out of it because biologists don't. I will always let the hen go on a good day, but on a slow day I will shoot them.

[LongBarrel]

Duckmen,
You may want to READ the study you are referring to. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LOSS OF HEN MATES. It is about the loss of drake mates and the affects of the loss on reproduction of hens.

I have enjoyed your posts up until this issue, but you are shoving what you believe are "higher levels" of hunting ethics on other members. The study you are quoting is not even relevant to the issue at hand.

If anything, the study hurts your stance and that of all duckhunters.
[img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
Direct quotes from

Mate Loss In Winter Affects Reproduction Of Mallards

"Since the 1970's, waterfowl hunting regulations have permitted greater harvest of male than female mallards, and there is evidence that waterfowl hunters in some seasons and regions harvest males selectively (Metz and Ankney 1991). Because mallards form pairs during autumn and winter (Rohwer and Anderson 1988), potential exists for females to experience disrupted courtship and pair-bond dissolution before the breeding season."

"Widowed females laid about 2 fewer eggs in first clutches than control females in 1997, but numbers of viable eggs in first clutches were similar. Widowed females also laid 3.75 fewer viable eggs in second clutches in 1997 than control females..."

"...our results also are consistent with the notion that midwinter mate loss could induce negative consequences on reproductive performance of yearling female mallards in some years."

So breaking the bond of male/female pairs has a proven negative affect on the reproduction of mallard ducks. Even though 95% of the hens paired again, the damage was done. There clutches were smaller and less viable.

If you are claiming to be on a "higher level" shouldn't you pass up on the drakes, because it is shown that you also damage the following year's clutch size and offspring viability.

Whadda say about that, Mr. Higher Level?

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: LongBarrel ]

[dos gris]

Duckmen I agree with some of the things you say but in regards to this subject I honestly don't follow you. The study is a pair bond issue and not about hen mortality.

Many other issues involved...one of which includes compensatory vs additive mortality. These are issues that drive the AHM plan.

[MSDuckmen]

I agree Dos,

It is about pairing but it is the only study that is available that has a direct correlation to adaptive harvesting of hens.

Do you know of another? I have many that Laurel Md. sent me, all that Atlanta sent me and even a good study of birds taken for the last 30 years from a group in MN. I already had this but Booger sent it and a couple of other reports on the extension. Got a few good reports that came from a study done by Mississippi State.

There was a good study done in 1987 by a team of biologist that covered the mortality rate on breeding and wintering areas that talked about predators and poisons but not adaptive mortality.

The only one that covers hens to any degree is this one., so how can we say that it is no problem when there is no study to show otherwise.

See how bleek the season is thus far? I know it is weather related but what if later it is discovered the decline is directly related to adaptive harvest of hens? I can tell you what, Everyone of these boys will be raising cain that the biologist should have seen this coming and just what are we paying them for to begin with.

It is a personal choice and I’m not telling you not to do it, at the same time when the limits drop you won’t be able to blame me for the mis-givings,
Another thing regardless of what some of you think I won’t be saying I told ya so. That’s not my style.

I just posted an answer to a question, Cheez I really didn’t want to go into this cause it is like politics and religion there is no right answer, Only Opinions.

[Greenhead22]

Killing hens is just like killing does, the population is going to decrease. When the MS DWFP got pushed by the insurance companies to set a higher doe limit, the population decreased and has been hurting ever since then. I know of several clubs that shot over 50 does each last season, most of them just left them out there if they didn't fall in their tracks. I liked seeing 10-20 deer everyday, now it's like 3-5 deer per day, and that's becoming more of a rareity. I say put the hen limit back to 1, same goes for the does, better yet just knock out the doe killing to get the population back up to where it should be.

[Johnboy114]

I dont wnat to start a new debate about shooting does, so let me say this plain and simple, shooting does in a reasonable amount(amount stated by biologist) will no doubt help a deer herd, i can testify because we went from seeing 10-15 on particular stand to seeing at least 40up to 80. I know these #'s are not an official document, but my own personal experience.

[LongBarrel]

Dead hens don't lay eggs sure enough!

If you kill drakes there will be corresponding reduction in the viability of eggs in a clutch for the next two to three years. The study shows that.

The was no mention of the mortality of hens. Mate loss occurred at the removal of drakes.

The reason people are jumping on your "higher ground" issue is that if you were so ethical and you followed the results of the affore mention study, which you brought up, you wouldn't kill drakes. The study shows, the impact of removing drakes from a mated couple. By killing drakes, YOU [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] have effected the clutch size and viability of mallards.

I am all for killing if it is done within the bounds of applicable laws. We have conservation groups, lobbyist, congressmen, and wild life experts that set the bag limits and seasons. The article Mate Loss In Winter Affects Reproduction Of Mallards does not mention the death of hens, but it does mention that drakes have no problems pairing again. (Damn Gigolos) Dead drakes don't fertilize anything, but grass.

So we are damned(by you) if we kill hens and we are damned(by the study) if we kill drakes.

I am with dos gris on this. The study ain't applicable to the subject. If we had a study to show the effects of harvesting hens, we would have something applicable. It follows that if such a study existed, the Feds would certainly use it for information to set bag limits.