Your Ideal Pup

[tennduckdog]

This is just a hypothetical question. If you were going to buy a new pup in the $1000.00 range, what bloodlines would you get assuming your goals were HT's and FT's. How good of bloodlines could you get for that money, FC x FC, FC x MH etc. (speeking of black dogs only ). Any specific kennels you would look for?
Bryan

[DRUM07]

I paid that, and this is what I got.

I tried to format this thing, but I couldn't get it to work. You guys know how it goes though.... The dogs in the middle of the three dog list are sires and dams, with the sires and dams on top and bottom.


FC/AFC Snake Eyes Double or Nothin
FC/AFC Aces High III
FC/AFC Westwinds Super Bunny Babe

Sire: NFC/FC/AFC Lucyana's Fast Willie

NFC/FC/AFC San Joaquin Honcho
North Star's A Lil Whoopi
Trieven Dynas

HRCH Lucyana's Third Time a Charm JH

NFC/FC/AFC San Joaguin Honcho
NAFC/FC/AFC Trumarc's Zip Code
Seymour's Wind Jammer Mist

Dam: Ginny's Annie JeminaMH

Super Powder
Powder's Shotgun Annie
Dealer's Plain Jane


I havn't run Charm since last spring, I was going to start his run for GRHRCH, but I have yet to do it.
Here's the link for a better looking pedigree.
http://www.rodnreel.com/countryairkennels/index.asp?pg=stud

[dukdawgn]

Most important to me is the health of the lines. OFA hips, CERF eyes, good physique on up into the years. I like the signs of an 8 or 9 year old dog who's still in tune, not out of shape, swayback, and fast going downhill.

Consistency in performance is a biggie as well. A dog that has proven itself time after time again. I like a dog that has been trained, not pushed thru training. Titles by certain age don't replace consistency down the road.

My two dogs are from such lines. Shooter (yellow male) is out of FC AFC "Jamie", (who is out of NFC NAFC CNAFC "Lean Mac" xx HRCH / MH bitch dog) and GRHRCH "Liza" MH. Everybody's prolly heard of Lean Mac, and Jamie has over 120+ All-Age FT points, plus some National appearances. Liza is an awesome dog, and has finished high in the SRS and GOG. Star (black female) is out of GRHRCH "Cody" MH (14 Grand Passes, 2000 HRC points, 2002 World Duck Dog Champion) and HRCH UH "Bailey" MH (who welped a litter of pups, then smashed her 1st Grand a few months later).

[B3]

I often find myself scrolling through the classifieds on Working Retriever Central. You see all the famous dogs in the pedigrees but its still hard to pick the dream pup because you only know about the fact that their parents are the ultimate performers. Hard to get an idea of what I would go for without knowing the parents and having seen the dogs in person. I would like a dog whose personality and attitude appealed to me and whose parents I could see in action. Still hard to know where to go -- puppies seem like a real crapshoot and the results of that dice roll is yours for the next 13 years.

[goosebruce]

Good lines... good health... repete breeding is a big big plus.... and pick the runt male. How hard is that?

Auggie pups aint been out long nuff for anyone to know anything, and for that kinda cheese (over your grand threshold) Id wanna know what Im biting off. His pups are probably the next big thang, cause hes the hottest thing going right now... be 2 years before anyone knows for sure if hes got it. Too many kick ass lean mac sons that I got a good ideal whut they produce to wait around on that.

Ford pups are some of the best looking, best training dogs around... Id be looking for a ford puppy, but with the increases in his stud fee the last 2 years, most good litter are gonna be over that grand threshold too.

Chavez doesnt get the breedings he used too... but its the same genetics. For a grand I bet you could find some AWESOME chavez repete breedings if you looked hard nuff. Slower to mature than some, they got it in the right ways if you ask me.

Jamie pups are awesome... You can buy a kick ass jamie son in yellow for a grand, and thats a deal. (ford, chavez, and jamie are all proven lean mac sons).

So if I was looking to spend a grand... Id look for a chavez pup from a repete breeding, or a yeller jamie pup from a mh/hrch bitch. Most ford pups gonna be over that money, and all auggie pups will be.

But Id be more likely to spend half that, on a hunt test puppy from a line I like, and a pair of parents I like Ive seen run. But hey, thats me.

SBE, you give up already, and looking for black dogs? Heck man, I gave you 18 months! hehehe. See ya this weekendy. travis

[dukdawgn]

that's the good part of my hunt test travels and the network of folks i've come to know thru HRC..... both of my pups, with the exception of Jamie, I've seen the lineage work a handful of times. Liza is a kick dog, she comes down from Coffee (guess dat makes Shooter and Rowdy kin). Bailey is a well big dog and has good manners in and out of the house/kennel, and Cody has run 2/3's of everything ever held up for grabs. Guess that was one advantage i had....

[goosebruce]

Oh, sbe, the pups mentioned would be fc x ht bitches for the most part. FC x FC bitches, usually run 2500-3500 bucks... just not that many ft titled bitches running around, and they can only spit out so many puppies. Doing some research, you could find a fc x nontitled bitch that was a littermate to a titled bitch or out of a titled bitch, but you'd still be over your grand threshold, and theres nothing on a pedigree that remebers also rans. Depending on your future for dog, that could be big consideration.

One of the biggest bargins out there in a black dog would be a little man X ht bitch.. little man(carolinas smoke on the water) is a black fc dog, that throws 50% choclate, and hes the hottest choclate stud going. But for every covented choc puppy, theres a black puppy that at about 10 weeks of age, can be bought CHEAP. hehe. Thats the way it goes sometimes... the breeding happened because someone wanted to some talented choc dogs that would be in high demand, but the by product is talented black dogs that black dog people wouldnt be looking for... Seek out situations like that and you can buy some real talented animals, cheap.

Still, if I was looking for a black dog, id buy from ht lines and spend 1/2 to 3/4 of that/ HT puppies are the biggest bargins on earth. travis

[tennduckdog]

Thanks for the info everyone, I'm not in the market right this moment, but wanted to hear some ideas since I will be looking this time next year. GB, I had heard about the HT dogs being the best deals around other places too, sooooo I think that I will start my search with some serious HT folks and ask around closer to the time to buy. I would be just as happy getting a MHxMH or HRCH etc. with a good pedigree as I would with FC AFC parents, I'm looking to get started into HT's not making a run for the Nationals right now . I know that there are some serious HT folks out there that have spent mucho denero on their pups that have the pedigrees but not the FT titles on their dogs that I could probably get a good pup at the price I'm looking for and most likely cheeper. Do ya think I could get a MHxMH with FC grandsires and MH grand dams for under a grand? I noticed that I needed to change my username, sorry about that SBE --- I got it handled now.
Bryan

[eastwoods]

My advice is the price of the pup is about the cheapest investment you'll make when you consider the time/money involved in training and running tests/trials.

When I buy a pup I decide on the price I want to spend. Let's say that price is $800.

Then I get the retriver field trial journal issues for the last 24 months and study them. Not just the winners, but the points per year, and the ads on what litters are out there. Whos doing all the breeding. I would also go to some trials/tests to see the dogs run. The breedings are in the catalog for that trial/test.

When you decide on say no more than 5 males that you want a puppy from then you start looking for breedings on the internet retriever online, retriever journal, Field Trial News, etc. The best prices for quality of dog are word of mouth and not advertised. Ask who will have a pup and every trial and test you go to. Make a contact list. Someone will no someone that just bred and you won't be able your pup 6 weeks after 60 days gestation, but you can get your deposit down and a high litter pick.

For $800 bucks from an ad I would expect to get a hot black FC stud bred to a bitch that was out of FC stud and a MH bitch and possibly if you know someone you can get a pup out of a FC stud and a MH bitch.

As always you have to assure OFA Good to Excellent and eyes Cert. No one that runs trials or AKC tests will breed anything less, 99% of the time just make sure.

When you pick the puppy it's not like picking a horse. You want to be in the top 50% of the litter if possible, but that's if both breedings are equal. I would almost take the last pick if the breeding was say better than I could afford. The pick is a crap shoot, but I'll next explain what your looking for.

How to pick a puppy depends a lot on what your doing with it and your temperment/ability to train.

If your temperment and ability to train is weak and you just want a hunting dog pick a pup that is not the dominant alpha male or Queen Bitch. Don't pick the bully, whiner, etc. Easy to tell by watching and rolling one over on it's back and holding it down by the throat. If the pup doesn't give in quick don't pick that one.

If you have a great handle on training with a collar and want to run trials and tests pick one that is closer to the leader of the pack, bully, apha, etc.

The pups will have a hiearchy established and you can see it on several visits and you can ask the owners.

When I said it's different than buying a horse I mean this:
When you buy a horse you look at body composition and that's about it, because you want that animal that can run faster than others.

When you pick a pup you pick attitude, period. Don't worry about size or looks. Just pick the one that's not afraid. Very people friendly, very curious and one that retrieves to hand naturally a pigeon wing.

At 6 weeks, out of 10 pups 2 will retrieve to hand naturally. 5 more will go and get it. 5 will not go.

It's still a crap shoot. I had a litter once and the meanest bitch pup that nobody wanted just because it whined and fought the other pups and was generally just a nonfriendly pup. 9 pups were picked first. I just gave the 10th mean whiny one to a buddy. That pup was the straightest markingest dog you could believe. That same pup was also very difficult to train. Very selfish but much talent.

A puppy's body will change and you can't tell what it'll look like when grown except by looking at the parents. A pup's disposition will not change. The attitude sticks for life that's why you stay away from the last pick of a great litter because everyone ahead of you knows what their looking for. Sometimes runts turn out to be great dogs because of their attitude. Don't be afraid to walk away from a deposit if the pup acts backwards, sluggish, noninterested in anything. That pup won't change the attitude.

[goosebruce]

Eastwoods wrote... out of 10 pups 2 will retrieve to hand naturally. 5 more will go and get it. 5 will not go. Remind me not to get his help to do my taxes with math like that! hehe.

Pick a litter, and a breeder. Tell your breeder HONESTLY your abilites, and your plans and your resources.... your breeder will spend weeks with the litter, you'll spend minutes, they are in a better postion to determine personailty types than you. travis

[eastwoods]

I did do 3 ammendments to my taxes one year, so here's my first 6 week old puppy retrieving ammendment for a litter of ten.

2 will retrieve (they'll go an get something and bring it generally back from where they started).

5 will go inspect it (3 will pick up and run off and 2 will just go smell/bump it).

3 will just sort of look around, walk off or jump up on you giving the mark no attention.

If I had to choose based on a 10 minute visit after a 10 hour ride, I'd choose one of the first two if I had them as choices. Next I'd choose one of the three that grabbed it up and ran off if I had those as my choices. Next if I had done my homework and it was a very good litter for the money I would pick the 2 that ran for the mark and bumped it. I would probably leave my deposit on the last three and take a long sad ride home.

You might have to put everything into perspective like if the owner had never thrown a mark, never introduced the pups to birds, the pups just ate, the pups had just been playing for the previous picker, etc. Course if it's a good litter from dog people the odds of this or slim to none.

If it was me I'd also take a live duck with me and a sock, tape, and a little thin rope. I'd ask permission and if granted I would place the sock over the ducks head, tape the wings together, and tie the rope around the ducks neck. Then I'd let the pups out that I had a choice of. Then I'd drag that duck slowly through the pups and the one that hung on the longest or showed interest the most is the one I'd get providing that there was nothing physically wrong with it.

Picking a puppy is the funnest thing you can do.

[eastwoods]

In case anyone thinks dragging a live duck around by it's neck and letting a bunch of pups eat on it is cruel let me put this perspective for you.

The first dog I got was largely in response to steel shot and I guess my poor shooting abilities. I would roll ducks time after time, I'd shoot cripples over and over again. Several times that first year I would knock down 5 to get one. That first year with a 11 month old dog poorly trained by a beginner, I do not ever remember losing a duck (out of 100s) except one widgeon. The dog brought it back and I grabbed it and threw it in the back of the blind thinking it was dead. About 30 minutes later that duck woke up and flew out of the blind and I never saw it land.

I've been sold ever since. Nash Buckingham said the best shot load for waterfowl was a black lab and I agree with him.