What is REALLY a controlled break...HRC test...

[Karen Klotthor]

Great Post Mark

Kenneth, good pictures and you are right. The first 2 is just repositioning or a creep. My point was you can talk to your dog, so by telling them to sit or heal is in no way meaning they are going to break. The last picture looked like my dog. She will either sit or go, nothing in between. Hope you can make it back and glad you like our food. Hope we get to judge together one day.
Karen

[Marty N.]

Never have understood nor will I ever, the reason why any national club or set of judges advocate two standards. One for the weekend and one for the Grand, surely the tests themselves should give you what you look for in a Grand Hunting Retrieving Champion without a different set of rules/ standards.

Yeah, Yeah I am sure I will get the same old line, "It's the Grand" so what. A Master National is a Master National, an National Am is still a National Am. the National Open is still the National Open same standard or rules you run by on the weekend. should apply for a National event. The tests them selves get harder, with no rule changes.

As I said, guess I will never understand. It is always harder to hit a moving target.


Marty

[cdwyer]

Why is there such a big gap between the weekend test and the Grand? If the same standards were held throughout the HRC program, there would be no big suprises two times a year for a lot of people. That would also eliminate all the internet chatter after each Grand. I realize that you cant set up the Grand series for a weekend test because it usually one judge and a handful of volunteers getting it done on a Friday afteernoon, but the standards could be judged the same. Maybe the standard is going to start to be higher on this point?

[cdwyer]

Yeah, Yeah I am sure I will get the same old line, "It's the Grand" so what. A Master National is a Master National, an National Am is still a National Am. the National Open is still the National Open same standard or rules you run by on the weekend. should apply for a National event.

Marty

Frome what I've seen and been told, at a National the first couple of series are judged so that everyone is given the benefit of the doubt to at least play a series or two out of respect for qualifiying and the energy and effort put forth in order to get there.

[goosebruce]

The answers are in the rule book. seasoned dogs are to be given more lenicey about commands, finished dogs should quickly and promptly comply with most commands and if excessive be failed, and grand dogs are to comply with ALL commands. Thats where the logic came from and thats why its grown into what we currently have.

I dont see a surprise about controlled breaks at the grand, when you are told every series they are none. Ive heard probably 60-70 judges briefings at the grand and without fail, every single one them explains if your dog is moving don't talk. Its cut and dried and nothing to judge, if it happens its a failure. Only confusion I see is when that description gets used generically, if the handler gets involved its a controlled break being given in a judges seminar. I dont want that in anyones minds on the weekends.

Ive lost a dog dang near every way you can loose one in the grand. And ive never lost one to a controlled break. You just dont talk if your dog is moving. i have seen people loose their dog because they spoke and they shouldnt have, but they knew the second they did THEY caused the failure. Never seen mad, just disapointed. Its a game, and games have rules.

Whats a cast refusual? Its sure different in a finished test and the Grand. Or in a senior test vrs a master. Whats plays at one level (and should) isn't acceptable at higher levels (and shouldn't be). Run a finished test to one side, and give 3 or 4 casts and stay on that side, stay in control, and assuming your not crazy wide, your going to pass. run a grand blind all on one side with 3 or 4 casts, and you'll be tapped.The tests sort them out, but anytime your judging to a standard, the standard must be flexible for the task your asking dogs to do, and the level being tested.

[GulfCoast]

I dropped several master tests in a row on blinds, and was totally bewildered, before I figured out you better CROSS the line in Master. It certainly is not written down anywhere, either. Trav: I have had more than one person tell me its the same in the Grand.

[goosebruce]

exactly my point... if you dont cross the line on your second cast, its a cast refuusal in all the higher levels in all the dog games I know of. But a finished blind, man I'll run a dog down one side of a lane or the other, as I see the need. Do it one way one dog, the next the next dog, so I know where I can get a little dog and get out of... do it all the time.

50% of casts taken will get you carried in most seasoned tests... 50% wont get you carried in a finished test. And 50% wont let you pick up the bird on a grand blind. The standards change because the prececsion expected from the dogs change. I don't know enough about akc, but i would imagine theres more (or should be more) lenicy on senior dogs than master dogs. travis

[jksboxofchocolates]

The answers are in the rule book. seasoned dogs are to be given more lenicey about commands, finished dogs should quickly and promptly comply with most commands and if excessive be failed, and grand dogs are to comply with ALL commands. Thats where the logic came from and thats why its grown into what we currently have.

I dont see a surprise about controlled breaks at the grand, when you are told every series they are none. Ive heard probably 60-70 judges briefings at the grand and without fail, every single one them explains if your dog is moving don't talk. Its cut and dried and nothing to judge, if it happens its a failure. Only confusion I see is when that description gets used generically, if the handler gets involved its a controlled break being given in a judges seminar. I dont want that in anyones minds on the weekends.

Ive lost a dog dang near every way you can loose one in the grand. And ive never lost one to a controlled break. You just dont talk if your dog is moving. i have seen people loose their dog because they spoke and they shouldnt have, but they knew the second they did THEY caused the failure. Never seen mad, just disapointed. Its a game, and games have rules.

Whats a cast refusual? Its sure different in a finished test and the Grand. Or in a senior test vrs a master. Whats plays at one level (and should) isn't acceptable at higher levels (and shouldn't be). Run a finished test to one side, and give 3 or 4 casts and stay on that side, stay in control, and assuming your not crazy wide, your going to pass. run a grand blind all on one side with 3 or 4 casts, and you'll be tapped.The tests sort them out, but anytime your judging to a standard, the standard must be flexible for the task your asking dogs to do, and the level being tested.

Travis,

We agree about alot of things but......

IMHO a cast is a cast and a refusal is a refusal at all levels. The difference is how they effect the performance/judgement of the dog. With each level the expectations of the dogs performance increases. I don't judge a refusal any different in Seasoned than in Finished but the Seasoned dog is given alot more leeway. Marking standards are the same at all levels with the difference being the difficulty being presented. The dog needs to track the bird in the air, proceed directly to the area of the fall and establish a hunt on its own. This applies to Started, Seasoned, Finished and the Grand.

Back on topic, I do believe that a handler that verbally stops a dog from leaving before being sent is a control break. A creeping dog is not leaving just moving. So if he is truly creeping, why say anything in the middle of the creeping? My worst creeper was Cinn and he was as likely to leave as stay so I would say something and let them judge me.

JMHO.

Janet

[jksboxofchocolates]

This is a really good discussion by the way.

I do not discuss the Grand in the seminars I give. Unlike the Master Nationals, the Grand is not Finished level tests. They have longer distances on blinds and marks, can throw quads and the control is higher than Finished where the Master National is suppose to be Master tests and judged at the same standard as a weekend test. The Grand is its own entity.

Janet

[GulfCoast]

I have not been to a MN, may go this year, wish it were closer. I do know the always ignored distance rules for Master are extended in the MN based on what they send you, and quads are very common at weekend master tests. But I understand it is otherwise judged as a weekend master test. No different "special" rules. They just crank up the tests as they say they test "to the maximum of the standard." Since anything common sense is illegal in master anyway.......

[jksboxofchocolates]

Mark,

There are "special" rules for the Grand but what is stated in the rulebook for the Grand is different than for Finished.

HRC have absolute maximum distances and AKC has recommended maximum distances. And depending on where and who you run a Master test you might not think the MN is cranked up distance wise. I have run some that from a distance standpoint would be legal in Finished and others that I have said "this is a hunt test?"

Janet

[goosebruce]

welp, yes and no... I've never judged with anyone with the exception of one person, that judged the example I gave on a finished blind as 3 or 4 cr in a row... i dont know what that persons NORMAL judgement would have been, but the statement to me at the time was, in the Grand those are cast refusuals. My responce was, good thing this isn't the grand, and I marked PASSED real big on my sheet, and he did too. The dog made progress to the bird, but not nessairly that much progress to the line (dog turned right, and handler kept giving left backs, dog rotated the right way and got a bite, but not a big bite). In the grand thats tap out time, and a master test too... thats how people are taught its ok to run a blind, and just like mark said, they're bewildered when they fail one the first time for not crossing the line. so yes, more cr's are allowed at different levels, but i still belive the majority of the time, what is considered a cr changes as well.

I remember a duck season so bad, we made a rule if you needed an over on a blind, you picked your dog up and the other dog got sent. ha.

I don't like judging dogs. I like testing dogs. I like to make tests where they are pretty black and white, and people understand whats expected and they know if they did it or not. I dont count refusuals, unless you get into mutiple in a row, but typically like a blind that mutiple in a row means a dog ends up somewhere they cant recover from and theres no judgement to it. Everywhere has room for one refusual, most places dont have room for mutiple. travis

[GulfCoast]

Janet: I hope to run both in the next 12 months. Its just gas and money, right?

[goosebruce]

And i agree, this is an excellent discussion as well. travis

[jksboxofchocolates]

Mark,

Don't forget the blood, sweat and tears to go along with that gas and money. And if you are talking about the MN in Maryland you might see Jimmy Nealy there.

Janet