What is REALLY a controlled break...HRC test...

[MRC Dream]

bite me.......

[duckdawg27]

side note: nothing beats watching a dog and handler working together on outside marks that are 180 degrees split...IMO it is one of the coolest things to watch when done correctly...

You are Soooo right.

You prolly already know this but,
Seminar manual page 31 does a much better job than I have of trying to define it and gives some "soft" definitions of the differences. Unless we just say "if your dog gets forward of the muzzle he's out" then there will always be "soft definitions". Even then, a judge is gonna be the one to determine "was he out that far or not". Its not too bad the way it is.....I know if my dog don't sit still he's not gonna see the marks anyway.

[jksboxofchocolates]

My 2 cents worth.......

Repositioning and creeping and control breaks and breaks are.........

Repositioning is described in the HRC seminar as movement by the dog that usually occurs "between" the birds being thrown and the dogs usually does not move forwards as much as side to side

Creeping is described as movement by the dog that usually occurs "as" the birds are being thrown and the dogs usually moves forward. If the dog moves forward to beyond the gun barrel (and hopefully the judges have addressed in their handlers meeting that when this occurs the handler should shoot up in the air or not at all). The dog should be re-heeled and not sent from the creeping position

Control Break is described as the handler stopping "forward" movement of the dog. If the dog has a control break the dog should return to heel immediately upon the handlers command

Break is a break is a break.........

Just my 2 cents worth.

Can you tell I just gave a seminar last Saturday?

Janet

[goosebruce]

Upon further review of this thread, I think I'll just make my dog sit and not give anyone anything to judge. travis (who wishes it was that simple!)

[duckdawg27]

Control Break is described as the handler stopping "forward" movement of the dog. If the dog has a control break the dog should return to heel immediately upon the handlers command

Break is a break is a break.........

Janet

Yes but...
The point you made may be one of the ones that gets mis-enforced if taken out of context by itself.
I know that if I swing "Right" my dog adjust "Right". This is also "forward" movement toward the mark.
If I say "sit" at that time it "could be" misconstrued that by stopping his forward movement at that time I have a controlled break. All the while my dog is still roughly within what we normally consider the heeling position.

The seminar manual also says "leaves the retrieving line before being signaled to do so".........in order to be considered a controlled break. (page 32)
So,...Along with having stopped forward motion, the final position of the dog should be considered.
A handler that stopped forward motion with a verbal "sit" but the dog is still "at the retrieving line".... has not had a CB .......I my opinion, the handler "prevented" a controlled break. But maybe thats just me..

I'm with you Travis as with most things that are "judgment calls" the less you give 'em to write down the better off you are. (wishing my dog would just sit still dambit)

[jksboxofchocolates]

The point you made may be one of the ones that gets mis-enforced if taken out of context by itself.
I know that if I swing "Right" my dog adjust "Right". This is also "forward" movement toward the mark.
If I say "sit" at that time it "could be" misconstrued that by stopping his forward movement at that time I have a controlled break. All the while my dog is still roughly within what we normally consider the heeling position.

The seminar manual also says "leaves the retrieving line before being signaled to do so".........in order to be considered a controlled break. (page 32)
So,...Along with having stopped forward motion, the final position of the dog should be considered.
A handler that stopped forward motion with a verbal "sit" but the dog is still "at the retrieving line".... has not had a CB .......I my opinion, the handler "prevented" a controlled break. But maybe thats just me..

If your dog is moving as you swing it is repositioning not creeping, IMHO. I would not look at the handler saying sit as a control break. A dog that is creeping stops on its own so if the handler says heel once he stops, it is not a control break. If he says it while he is moving he has made me judge it as a control break. The beginning of a creep looks no different that the beginning of a break.

I have owned three dogs that SIT at the line and three dogs that have had serious issues with creeping, control breaks and breaking. I fully understand

[duckdawg27]

This has been an interesting discussion.
I know that AKC judges it that way but I had no idea that anyone in HRC was doing that. Had not even heard of that before this thread.

[Karen Klotthor]

Big difference in AKC, you cannot talk to your dog, so if you tell them sit or heal it does not matter if it is a creep, control break or repostioning. You are out for talking.
Creeping and Control break is not the same thing. I gree with Janet on her take of the two.
Karen

[duckdawg27]

Big difference in AKC, you cannot talk to your dog, so if you tell them sit or heal it does not matter if it is a creep, control break or repostioning. You are out for talking.
Creeping and Control break is not the same thing. I gree with Janet on her take of the two.
Karen

Hi Karen
yes I know the AKC rules too but, this whole thread is starting to take on the "spin" that if you talk to your dog in HRC "While it is still at the line at or near heel" that it could be judged a controlled break if the judge deems that the dog was moving forward at the time. You and Janet have much more experience than I but, I've just never heard that until today. That is ONE of the requirements for judging a controlled break but not the only requirement
I just thought it was a good discussion so I joined in.

The dog shown below was moving forward and I said "sit" while he was moving.
He could be out because of a controlled break? I don't think so


The dog shown below was moving forward and I said "sit" while he was moving.
Well, he is getting close to where the seminar manual says is excessive creeping. I even raised my gun barrel. Controlled Break? I don't think so but a lot closer to it than the previous pic.


There is no doubt what this dog is about to do is there? No splitting hairs over whether I talked when he was moving or not. If I get him stopped at all it will be a controlled break and up to the judge holding the pencil on what to do about it. He's most likely gonna be out in my book too.


I gotta try to make it back down to your club Karen, that gumbo you make is worth the 11/12 hour trip.
I'm outta here for the long weekend...every body have a good and safe 4th of July

[goosebruce]

kenneth, i think the purpose of the thread was for what you just said. In the Grand, if you speak to your dog while he is moving, it is a controlled break and you fail. It is NOT that way anywhere else in hrc... ergo, using the defintion of the handler getting involved makes it a controlled break, is a slippery slope we need to be very careful of. Technically it might still be correct, but we judge hunting dogs NOT technicialties. The Grand simply doesnt judge it, if the dog moves and you speak your done. Its fair, because you know it ahead of time, but it is CERTAINLY not something that needs to filter down, or should be tolerated at weekend hunts. Anytime you split a hair, you waste a lot of time and accomplish little... its a freggin hair!

Im gonna establish a creep line one time, and any dog that doesnt reach it fails for lack of desire. Maybe they'll take my liscene and I wont get any more hi paying judging gigs! ha. travis

[Cat Squirrel]

I must say I do not agree with that slippery slope, regarding speaking to a dog at the Grand. We talk to our dogs in HRC.

A break is a break (controlled or not) and a dog that acts on an intention to retrieve a game bird w/o being released is most certainly and deservedly OUT. But, I do not like making absolutes, even at the Grand. It takes a judges discretion away and if you're judging the Grand and have to cut a dog because someone slips a sit or a heel in while a dog is tiptoeing, but not going anywhere....hhhmmmm

But I digress......I agree with Janet and Travis for the most part on the definitions.....

[flyntwt]

So, if Im training my dog to run the Grand one day, hopefully, I should (like in AKC) train not talking on the line, for HRC?

[GulfCoast]

I have nothing against the Grand at all, but this post illustrates why, when I am sitting at a judges/handlers seminar, and the presenter keeps saying "But now, at the Grand...." I have the urge to hit them in the head with a bottle from the second row. My personal favorite was the presenter that literally shook his finger at the assembled people at the seminar and went off on "If you have not judged the Grand, then shame on you!" Really? Us new judges should just get up and leave now, as we have flunked the "cool kids" test??? Those new handlers and judges are worried about started and seasoned tests, and the long time finished judges that are there to punch a credit should not need to be told how the Grand is different. Stay on topic. We drove a long way for this.

Same with any judge I hear at a test say "We gotta set something up to get these dogs ready for the Grand....or the MN." You get dogs ready for national level tests somewhere else other than weekend tests. Pity the poor HR dog just fresh out of seasoned or fresh of a SH that runs under that judge.

Soapbox closed. Carry on.

[gator]

i'm waiting on the thoughts, postulations, deliberations, and beligerancy of MRC DREAM before I form my final opinion.

gator

[goosebruce]

Mark, that was someone's opinion that probably had the best intetions but really poor timing. The Grand is not part of the judges seminar and shouldn't be. Most folks still chewing on the 4 levels that are supposed to be taught, they really dont need the confusion of the Grand thrown in there. travis (who thinks seasoned ought to get it own seminar more than anything else!).