What is REALLY a controlled break...HRC test...

[duckdawg27]

CF...since you were the OP are you talking about Finished or Grand. Two different conversations IMO.

[T-Bone]

CF...since you were the OP are you talking about Finished or Grand. Two different conversations IMO.

I know you axed CF but dont know if he still signed on or not plus Idont think he will mind if I comment. With that being said....maybe 2 different conversations but a controlled break is a controlled break at any level.

[Mark Evans]

Tony,

If the judges tell you at the handlers meeting to re-heel your dog if he creeps beyond the end of the gun, then you'd better do so. That's exactly what happend to me at the Grand. There is no doubt Elvis was beyond the barrell. I thought he was stopped when I re-heeled him. Ronnie and Roger thought he was still moving forward. Guess who was right????? When I looked at the film, he was still leaning toward the last bird; therefore, I ran test dog for flight A the next three days. Live and learn. Nothing like a $230.00 lesson!!!!! At least this one was on our home turf.

Mark

[CF]

....maybe 2 different conversations but a controlled break is a controlled break at any level.

Exactly T...which is part of the reason for my OP...there should be only ONE controlled break IMO...



...I am not trying to split hairs...just interested in seeing different opinions on the subject...I have been hearing a lot of talk about this lately... I know there was a lengthy discussion about it at the National meeting a few weeks ago...so obviously I am not the only one that has thought about it...its easy to say "if you get involved with the dog at all" it is considered a control break but it ain't easy to judge or be judged on...the Grand approach is a little more cut and dry but there is still "wiggle" room.......unfortunately the wiggle room opens the door for "judgement"...


...another thing one persons standard is more than likely different than another...enter the human element....hehe that last one was for you gator...





Mark...I am trying to learn THE lesson the easy way.......

[duckdawg27]

CF...since you were the OP are you talking about Finished or Grand. Two different conversations IMO.

I know you axed CF but dont know if he still signed on or not plus Idont think he will mind if I comment. With that being said....maybe 2 different conversations but a controlled break is a controlled break at any level.

Oh dats OK i'm just wastin some time on the computer anyway
Well I don't know....but seems like their saying "if you say sit" to your dog to prevent a CB at the Grand it will be scored a CB. But, if you say "sit" to your dog on the weekend and it prevents a CB then you saved your dog.
Seems like to me they are two different things. IDK.?? just sayin
Should they be different? Not my game so I won't answer that.
I don't play at the Grand so I don't have a dog in that hunt anyway. The Grand is for "others". God bless the ones who run in it but its not for me.

[goosebruce]

seasoned dogs are expected to have more lenicy on commands... finished dogs should show a more prompt responce to commands and a higher level of control.... grand dogs should show control on all commands. a cb is a controlled break, but how they are judged as a markdown (or failure) will differ depending on the level being judged. travis

[goosebruce]

rowdy crept 35 foot away from the honor bucket on the upland in ga. I never said a word. the live walk up bird was shot, and he was closer to the bird than the working dog. I swear to God he smiled at me, as he sized up that yeller dog. he let the dog have the bird, and slowly one step at time came back to heel. judge said heel you dog out, 2 steps and a congratulations. had i spoke, id been toast (david white did on the same honor). it was a creep, but since the upland is pass or fail, a creep passed. Now i failed an upland because i stopped walking before I blew a whsitle and my dog was past my foot, and the last grand because my dog was sitting (slowly moving forward thru cover to see bird) not sat when he shot... so go figger. but if your dog is moving, and you speak in the grand your done. troy had stone fall off a platform one time at the frog pond test. no movement forward, just slide off the platform. he said sit, and knew he was toast. 2 of the BEST judges in hrc where sitting behind him, and felt his pain. but its clear in the grand, moving dog and a command is done. travis

[Cat Squirrel]

My opinion:

A re-adjustment is a simple re-positioning with no or little forward movement. Retriever stays withing the safety zone of behind the muzzle.

A creep is forward movement that is self-arrested by the retriever without involvement from the handler. The retriever has crept into an "unsafe position" in front of the muzzle and the handler must adjust their shot upward accordingly for safety. The severity of a creep is proportional to the distance in front of the muzzle. A little in front, (a foot or so)... mmmmm. A lot in front, (let's say double the distance of the gun barrel), your dog has shown a lack of line manners and control, so please re-heel your dog and show Finished level control, and the dog's response to your control is scrutinized (judged). And yes, a creep can become a controlled break.

A controlled break is a handler becoming involved in arresting forward movement. The dilemma is, in HRC, we can speak to our dogs, so some folks think this is ok to speak and stop. However, I tend to agree with FT rules, which state, if a handler becomes involved in arresting forward momentum, the handler "knew" the dog intended to retrieve...so it is judged as such. More than likely a failure.

A full break is unarrested or controlled forward movement to retrieve a bird. Good-bye.

This is just the way I view it....although I'm certainly not as experienced a judge as some on this board and welcome comments.

[goosebruce]

I really wish it would be stressed in the seminars, and to people being aprenticed judges, that if you set up a series of marks that require movement on the dogs part, to expect movement. left 180 then right, then back to a big middle bird, is going to make a dog move... and if that dog hasn't moved to where its unsafe, it aint a creep. It amazes me how many times people EXPECT me to tell them to reheel their dog... geez if I wanted them to be a statue I wouldnt have swung them. And I like swinging them, following the gun is the ultimate in teamwork in your marking series and a dog looking down a gun when your hunting doesnt have to be handled much!

At the same time, i wish every judge everytime someone comes to the line with a dog that has be screamed at to sit thru the marks, they where immedately picked up. I think 2 seasons of actually judging line manners like we hunt would stop 95% of that stuff. Really, would you hunt with a buddies dog that has to be yelled at while the birds are going down? Or in reailty, yelled at any time on a hunt? Isnt that the reason we have finished dogs, to keep from being the guy everyone at the boat ramp is laughing about at lunch? travis

[Mike Perry]

Travis, check your PM

MP

[Mike Perry]

I really wish it would be stressed in the seminars, and to people being aprenticed judges, that if you set up a series of marks that require movement on the dogs part, to expect movement. left 180 then right, then back to a big middle bird, is going to make a dog move... and if that dog hasn't moved to where its unsafe, it aint a creep. It amazes me how many times people EXPECT me to tell them to reheel their dog... geez if I wanted them to be a statue I wouldnt have swung them. And I like swinging them, following the gun is the ultimate in teamwork in your marking series and a dog looking down a gun when your hunting doesnt have to be handled much!

That is why I don't like to run or set up the big 180 swings in Finished. You are asking the dog to move to see the marks but still be still. Hard to do some times especially with a big left to right swing on a nleft sided heel dog. Get them moving and you can expect some to keep right on going.
In a hunting situation, you shoot a whole lot of them right in front and slightly to the sides of the spread. i know we shoot some going away but most right in front. even o nteal buzzing thru the decoys, nost hits are the ones close in and in front. Tight marks are more the norm in hunting IMO,
Mp

[goosebruce]

i dont mind it, as long as the judges realized they asked a dog to move... thats my only gripe... if Im moving a dog to see birds, nobody should care if the dog moves as long as I can still shoot the birds safely.

as far as what happens hunting, ive killed my share of ducks. But never on a side hill in a pasture. I always joke we're shooting meadow mallards! ha. travis

[CF]

I am not sure if I crept or the dog crept or broke or whatever now!!!!


This subject should be cut and dry and in reality it is...but when you start talking about it there seems to be a lot of different ideas on what a "break" or in some cases "creep" is...


side note: nothing beats watching a dog and handler working together on outside marks that are 180 degrees split...IMO it is one of the coolest things to watch when done correctly...

[MRC Dream]

side note: nothing beats watching a dog and handler working together on outside marks that are 180 degrees split...IMO it is one of the coolest things to watch when done correctly...

Can you teach me?

[goosebruce]

Dude, we can't even get yur goofy butt to behave on the interweb... how we gonna teach you anything? ha!

start by sitting down. travis