A new look a Genesis

[Deep Woods]

Proverbs 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

[Ordek Avci]

Proverbs 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

How exactly do you see that applying to this discussion?

[cwink]

I'll throw my two cents in here, though two cents may be a bit over priced for my opinions.

First of all, no one simply reads the Bible literally, not you, not me, not your preacher, not the Church of Christ, not Paul the Apostle, and not Jesus himself. According to Mr. Webster, a literal reading would "adhere to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression." Once you get past the fact that none of our Bibles are translated literally, there is still no way to simply read your English Bible literally. As has already been mentioned, we can't even agree on what the English words mean. But even once you understand what the words are saying, we all agree that there is more to it than just what is on the page. We call that interpretation or application or something like that. This is what Jesus was doing on the Sermon on the Mount. "You have heard it said... but I say to you..." He took the "literal" reading of the Law and showed everyone that just taking it "literally" was incomplete.

So, skipping over the creation story (that's it's own topic), and looking at the Garden, I think we can all see a few things. Mainly, that the Garden was a real place. Why else would Moses go to such length to describe where it was? How could Adam and Eve be kicked out of some place if they were every person and Eden was everywhere? They had to be individuals and Eden had to be a place with a limited geographic boundary. It's obvious that Paul saw Adam as a real individual as well by the way he talks about him in his letters, specifically Rom. 5, 1 Cor. 15, and 1 Tim. 2.

But I would also agree that there's more to the Garden than just a nice story, there are theological implications to it as well. This is where there is obvious room for difference, but I'll throw my interpretations out there for you.

Before the Fall, the Garden was the place where God walked among his people. He, in his holiness, was able to commune with his people there. But the Garden was a limited place; it had boundaries. Therefore, I believe, God's plan from the very beginning was to expand the boundaries of the Garden until the Earth was filled with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the seas (Is. 11:9, Hab. 2:14). To do that, God charged Adam with cultivating and keeping the Garden (Gen. 2:15). These words are important because I believe that Adam in the Garden is a type of the Levites around the Tabernacle. These same verbs, 'abad for cultivate and shamar for keep, are seen again, together, in Numbers 3:8, which is talking about the role of the Levites at the Tabernacle. This is important because, like the Garden, the Tabernacle is where God communed with his people. Unfortunately for Israel, however, their sin kept them from directly communing with God, hence the need for the Law and the Levitical priests. I think you see Garden-imagery as the Israelites enter Canaan as well, with the Promised Land taking on Eden-like qualities and roles. When Joshua gets ready to lead the people to Jericho they are met by an angel with a drawn sword (like that one guarding Eden?) in Josh. 5. The Temple also is ripe with Garden imagery. The inner walls of the Holy of Holies is decorated with gourds, open flowers, palm trees, and cherubim (1 Kings 6), which, again, brings the Garden back to mind. It was here in the Holy of Holies that God would commune with his people. Fast forward to us today after Jesus dies and the veil is torn, and Paul says that we are now God's temple (1 Cor. 3:16), where God communes with us personally and individually thanks to Jesus' work on the cross. And where as Adam and Israel failed to cultivate and keep, and fill the world with the knowledge of the glory of God, Jesus is accomplishing his mission through the church (Matt. 28:18-20) until it is finally accomplished in the New Heavens and New Earth.

So, I do think there is more to the Garden than it just being a really nice, low-labor farm. But then again, I may be wrong.

I too saw it as a literaly interpretation before attending this class. But what I always questioned is how long ago Adam and Eve lived, what thier world was like and how does this story fit in with what we know from science as far as prehistoric man. So you can see it has 2 people put in a garden and lived and worked the land and populated this world, disobeyed God by eating of the fruit and then was forced to deal with thier sin.. Or it can be seen as God created Man and Woman (represeneted by Adam and Eve in this book) and placed them in a Garden (represented by Earth) where they lived and worked on the land and as the world became more populated and more civialized they began to rely more on ther selves and less on God, and sin over took them..

After looking at it this way, it became clear that it really doesn't matter if Adam and Eve are 2 people or 10,000 people and if the Garden is a small place on Earth or emcompasses the whole Earth the lessons are the same. To put your trust in God and rely on him to give you what you need...

[Ordek Avci]

That all sounds good cwink, but (there's always a but) then you are making Paul to be either a liar or flat out wrong when he says that "sin came into the world through one man," which is an obvious reference to Adam in that passage in Romans 5. I see no other way to understand Romans 5 except that Paul saw Adam as one real man. Did he act as a representative of us all? Yes, that's Paul's point. But he was one man, no other way around it.

I know it's not a popular thing to do, but there are times when you just have to be honest and truthful with someone and tell them that they're reading it wrong. I think there is plenty of biblical evidence that Adam was one real man. If someone says otherwise, then they are wrong.

[skywalker]

Be careful, because the same application could be made to Christ......He was only a representative of a Messiah, not really the true Messiah, therefore all peoples (religions) can have their own Messiah, just as his teaching of Adam as a representative of all man, not really a man.

Rom 5:12
By ONE man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin.......
Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by ONE, (Jesus Christ).

Just a thought.

[Deep Woods]

Proverbs 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

How exactly do you see that applying to this discussion?

Some want to change the way of the Gospel. Don't try to understand God because we can't, just obey his coommands and follow Him.

I will have to disagree with the gentleman teaching this class you speak of on this matter...

His response was "No one knows for sure if Adam and Eve were alone on earth, and that is not the main point of the story.

There is nothing to show that there were any other humans on the earth and we must take God at His word. Some try to bring science and eveolution into play and not to mention doubt, this is heresy. Take God at His Word. Be very careful in these last days.

[cwink]

Proverbs 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

How exactly do you see that applying to this discussion?

Some want to change the way of the Gospel. Don't try to understand God because we can't, just obey his coommands and follow Him.

I will have to disagree with the gentleman teaching this class you speak of on this matter...

His response was "No one knows for sure if Adam and Eve were alone on earth, and that is not the main point of the story.

There is nothing to show that there were any other humans on the earth and we must take God at His word. Some try to bring science and eveolution into play and not to mention doubt, this is heresy. Take God at His Word. Be very careful in these last days.

So you are saying that we should not question or analyze what we read in the Bible?? Then why did God give us the ability to reason, to ask questions, to communicate like no other animal on Earth. To try and take a different look at a book in the bible and to try and gain a better understanding of how God wants me to live my life is not IMO a bad thing. This class has let me see that there may be some important lessons in Genesis on how to be more like Christ than just a historical account of how Earth was formed, where or how big the Garden of Eden was. I am not saying that I believe any of these theories and the leader of the class is not saying these are true, he is just presenting the opinions of several different theologians on the origins and other possible meanings of Genesis. In the end we are all searching for the same thing, a better relationship with God.

[Deep Woods]

You took that all wrong....on the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden it should speak to us that if we disobey God we suffer the consequences, don't even taste of sin, don't even second guess anything that might be sinful or look sinful. Look where it got Eve and Adam and the whole human race.
If you love God keep His commandments....Do what God says do and don't do the things that He says not to do. If we choose to do the sinful things of the world, then we must get ready for the consequences, just like Adam and Eve. It's your choice.

God bless

[cwink]

I finally got the name of some of the primary book the leader has been using.

It is "The beginning of wisdom" by Leon Kass a synopsisi of the book is below..

Synopsis
As ardent debates over creationism fill the front pages of newspapers, Genesis has never been more timely. And as Leon R. Kass shows in The Beginning of Wisdom, it’s also timeless.

Examining Genesis in a philosophical light, Kass presents it not as a story of what happened long ago, but as the enduring story of humanity itself. He asserts that the first half of Genesis contains insights about human nature that “rival anything produced by the great philosophers.” Kass here reads these first stories—from Adam and Eve to the tower of Babel—as a mirror for self-discovery that reveals truths about human reason, speech, freedom, sexual desire, pride, shame, anger, and death. Taking a step further in the second half of his book, Kass explores the struggles in Genesis to launch a new way of life that addresses mankind’s morally ambiguous nature by promoting righteousness and holiness.

Even readers who don’t agree with Kass’s interpretations will find The Beginning of Wisdom a compelling book—a masterful philosophical take on one of the world’s seminal religious texts.

“Extraordinary. . . . Its analyses and hypotheses will leave no reader’s understanding of Genesis unchanged.” —New York Times

“A learned and fluent, delightfully overstuffed stroll through the Gates of Eden. . . . Mix Harold Bloom with Stephen Jay Gould and you’ll get something like Kass. A wonderfully intelligent reading of Genesis.”—Kirkus Reviews, starred review

“Throughout his book, Kass uses fruitful, fascinating techniques for getting at the heart of Genesis. . . .Innumerable times [he] makes a reader sit back and rethink what has previously been tediously familiar or baffling.”—Washington Post

“It is important to state that this is a book not merely rich, but prodigiously rich with insight. Kass is a marvelous reader, sensitive and careful. His interpretations surprise again and again with their cogency and poignancy.”—Jerusalem Post

[Deep Woods]

We can see that the book has been exalted by some of the most "worldly and wicked" newspapers and figures. That should let you know that it is not of God.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

"The very things which give you the more honor among men will make you only the scoff of hell." Rev. Charles G. Finney

[cwink]

I give up.. Yall probably see me as some whacked out Christian. I obviously can't convey the premis of the class very well. This church is a pretty conservative Church of Christ IMO and if this class it was way off in left field it would last long.. In fact I think I am the youngest one in the class. But it has generated some good discussions on the book of Genesis in our small group.

[Deep Woods]

"The good Christian in the world's esteem is never abrupt, never aggressive, yet he is greatly admired. He has a selfish devotion to pleasing men, than which nothing is more admired. I heard of a minister who had not an enemy in the world. He was said to be most like Christ among all the men they knew. I thought it strange that a man so like Christ should have no enemies, for Christ,--more like himself than any other man can be--had a great many enemies and very bitter enemies too. Indeed it is said, "If any man will live godly in Christ Jesus, he shall suffer persecution." But when I came to learn the facts of the case I understood the man. He never allowed himself to preach anything that could displease even Universalists. In fact he had two universalists in his Session. In the number of his session were some Calvinists also, and he must by no means displease them. His preaching was indeed a model of its kind. His motto was--Please the people--nothing but please the people. In the midst of a revival, he would leave the meetings and go to a party; why? To please the people."

"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men, is abomination in the sight of God." --Luke 16:15.

[novacaine]

Might I suggest www.answersingenesis.com .
Ken Ham has multiple books on all aspects of The Book of Genesis and it has helped me sort out many things that I could not understand on my own. He also has built the Creation Museum in Kentucky that opened a few years ago. I heard him speak at a homeschooling convention in Starkville several years ago and was astounded. He gives a good explanation of "literal". After i read a few of his books i dug back into Genesis with a whole new understanding.
Try it - i promise you will not be sorry!

[farmweather]

Id be real careful with that line of thought, not saying right or wrong as we do know the Bible is not a complete history of the time and I agree we should not get so hung up on details we do not get the point. We believe the Bible to be the Holy Inerrant Word of God.

However, in many cases the details are very important. For instance the fact that Christ was made man. The fact that he died and defeated death to save us from our sins. You can see where if you continue very long down the road you are mentioning you may find yourself questioning very important details as "metaphorical" or "unhistorical".

To play the Devils advocate here, if the tree and Eden was "metaphoircal" perhaps then the Cross and the death and suffering of Christ was "metaphorical" as well. I may claim that it didnt really happen but I get the point of the "story".

We believe the Bible to be the Holy Inerrant Word of God.

Caveat Emptor IMO

the doc

I agree with the doc. 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For k no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God l as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21. This excerpt is from the ESV. I suggest looking at this section of Peter as it may shed some light on your pursuit of God's word.

[Gordon]

Once again, I am late to the conversation. I appologize.

This question seems simple since Jesus spoke of many of these people and places in Genesis. He spoke of creation, he spoke of Adam and Eve as two distinct people, he spoke of Abel, he spoke of Noah and the flood, he spoke of the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah, and of Lot and his wife turning to a pillar of salt.

Jesus said that none of the Old Testament will pass away - not one 'jot or tittle." Jesus believed these things were all real and atributed them to Moses when he said "Moses and the prophets."