Gordon wrote: I never "prescribed" any amount of works, thats was you putting words in my mouth. No, I never used the word "prescribed," that is you're being not careful in your reading and putting words in MY mouth. I was showing that "faith without works is dead" just as the Scripture says. Did you not count 4 works and say that it is "an abundance?" You also called it a "surprising degree."Deep Woods wrote:What a surprising degree was here of repentance, faith, and other graces!
Yes and that was “an abundance” of good works considering the amount of time that he knew Jesus as his Saviour. Most people today claim to be saved for 1, 3, 5, 10, even 20 years and not show even that amount of good works. You should go back and read the post again….Deep Woods wrote:We are reminded of the thiefs works by the following Scriptures....
Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
....the other answering rebuked him -What a surprising degree was here of repentance, faith, and other graces!
And what abundance of good works, in his public confession of his sin, reproof of his fellow criminal, his honourable testimony to Christ, and profession of faith in him, while he was in so disgraceful circumstances as were stumbling even to his disciples! This shows the power of Divine grace.
The Greek word for abundance is "huperbole" a throwing beyond others, i.e. (figuratively) supereminence; adverbially (with 1519 or 2596) pre- eminently:--abundance, (far more) exceeding, excellency, more excellent, beyond (out of) measure.
Your words show that you believe that these 4 works are more than enough. Am I misinterpreting you? All the thief did was 4 works in addition to having faith and THEN he was saved?[/b]
Yes, you are misinterpreting me.
Where did I say I believed that? (putting words in my mouth again.) I said just as scripture… faith without works is dead. The theif proved his salvation by his works….confessing his sin, reproving the other, standing up for Jesus, profession of faith in Jesus Christ…
Carnal Christians...don't think so???? No matter what you think, Paul called them "brethren" and "in Christ" and he called them "carnal." So as not to put words in your mouth, are you saying that "brethren" and "in Christ" can be taken as not meaning "saved?" I would ask that you please be specific in answering that.
1Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, {Paul cannot speak to them as spiritual people...because they were still carnal..which he clearly shows in the next phrase} but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
As if the apostle had said, "My brethren, although I speak the highest wisdom amongst them that are perfect, yet could not I speak the unto you as unto spiritual persons, but as unto carnal: because the works of the flesh are found with you, and if you were saved, at the best you would be but babes in Christ."
Paul uses the word “brethren” as a polite salutation, it was also tradition of the times to address in that manner…Paul's purpose here was to pacify/appease them with the polite salutation to gain their attention...just as he did in Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. here in Acts 22, Paul is speaking to his persecutors....Just as Stephen did in Acts 7:2.
Excerpt from The Pulpit Commentary………
Ver. 1. — I… could not speak unto you as unto spiritual. Though softened by the word brethren, there was a crushing irony of reproof in these words: “You thought yourselves quite above the need of my simple teaching. You were looking down on me from the whole height of your inferiority. The elementary character of my doctrine was after all the necessary consequence of your own incapacity for anything more profound.” As unto carnal. The true reading here is sarkinois, fleshen, not sarkikois, fleshly, or carnal; the later and severer word is perhaps first used in ver. 3. The word sarkinos ( earneus ) , fleshen, implies earthliness and weakness and the absence of spirituality; but sarki-kos ( carnalis ) involves the dominance of the lower nature and antagonism to the spiritual. As mite babes in Christ. The word “babes” has a good and a bad sense. In its good sense it implies humility and teachableness, as in <461420>1 Corinthians 14:20, “In malice be ye babes;” and in <600202>1 Peter 2:2, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word;” and in <401125>Matthew 11:25. Here it is used in its bad sense of spiritual childishness. To walk as a mere ordinary human being is not to “walk in the Spirit”
1Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. Because they were not spiritual and were not able to bear the truth…1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: {Ver. 3. — For ye are yet carnal. This is the reason for the spiritual dulness which your pride prevents you from recognizing. – The Pulpit Commentary} for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {As men; that is, “as
men, not as Christians.” – The Pulpit Commentary}
I stand on my original post.
1Corinthians 3:3 --is speaking of the people just like I mentioned in the previous post..they claim to be Christians but "walk as men" and Paul is rebuking the majority of them at Corinth and showing them that they are not true Christians as they were "professing", but were in truth, still carnal, unregenerate, just like "worldly men". People today have the same issues and some false teacher/preacher tells them "Oh, it's okay... you are just a carnal Christian" STOP IT!!!! They are lost..they need to get on their knees and pray thru!!!
So if you sin once, you are lost? You need to keep clean to make it? The bible says that is impossible and if you say it is, the bible calls you a liar. Do you sin?
No, not lost, but you are at enmity with God at that point and have sinned against Him, not just some earthly authority, not the mayor of a little village, but The Almighty God and confession of and true repentance from that sin is needed immediately…that means you never commit that sin again…study the life of David....
Yes, you do need to keep as clean as possible.
1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If God cleansed you of your sin why would you trample His Name and Precious Blood by continuing in willful sin, living for and just like the “world”. What kind of testimony is that?
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Shall we sin; if they should thus abuse the doctrine of salvation by grace, and take occasion from it to live in known sin, it would show that they loved sin, that they were its slaves; and continuing this course, would reap its wages, eternal death.
The true Christian has a willingness to serve God, be obedient to Him, and does not feel that it is a burden to strive to live a holy and sanctified life…The true Christian does not see it as a burden to let go of the things of the “world” and wholly devote themselves to God. The true Christian does not want to do the things of the” world”, go the places he used to go, hang around with the same worldly friends, etc…because now he serves a new Master, God Almighty and desires not to offend Him in anyway, wanting to be pleasing to Him. Serving Him out of love and following the Spirit and not the will of the flesh.. 1Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
No where did I say that we as men are perfect...but No where in the scriptures does it give us liberty to commit sin and continue in a “worldly” life and say that we will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven by doing so. 1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Again the word repentance means; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent. Repent as a little boy defined it – “Being sorry enough to quit”.
The Greek word for carnal is; sarkikos, {sar-kee-kos'} defined as - pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.
1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
AM...PRESENT TENSE...look up the greek for that.
Lets do look that up…. The Greek word for am used in the scripture here is
eimi, {i-mee'} -; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was.
Now you should read the next scripture to fully understand what Paul is saying…..
1Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Paul is not saying He is still the chief of sinners…He is stating that He was the chief of sinners, he persecuted the Christians, took part in the stoning of Stephen, etc… but “Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” Showing that if God could change a chief sinner such as Saul, that there is hope for anyone. Of whom I am chief.- The word is used to denote eminence, and it means that he occupied the first rank among sinners. There were none who surpassed him. He does show that he keeps rememberance of his sins against God and where God had delevered him from and that is what keeps him humble and feeling unworthy of God’s grace. Did Paul continue to live the same lifestyle, have the same friends, go to the same places, do the same things as he did before his Damascus Road experience??? NO he did not!! Saul became Paul, he became a changed man, a man dedicated to God. He turned from his sinful ways and lifestyle…a complete 180 deegree turn from the way he was.
Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
DWELLETH...ALSO PRESENT TENSE...yet Paul is saved.
Yes..Paul is saved..but understand this….Paul is speaking of the “sin that dwelleth in me” as his flesh, his will…which being now and since his conversion led by the Spirit he no longer does the things of the flesh, nor does he fulfill the lust of the flesh, {i.e. “sin that dwelleth in me”}..You see the sin nature is still in us when we become saved, but we no longer serve the sin nature that “dwelleth” in us..we now are led by the Spirit and no longer wish to do the things of the flesh. Although the temptation may arise in us, {sin that dwelleth in me} there is where we are proved to be “walking in the Spirit”, when we do not follow that temptation when it arises and resist the devil and do what is right before God.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
1 John 1:8-10 If WE (the saved, brethren, us) say that we HAVE (present tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US (saved people) our sins, and to cleanse us (saved people)from all unrighteousness. If WE (saved people) say that WE (saved people) have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We still have the Adamic nature because we still wear flesh and we cannot keep all of the commandments it is impossible even Paul had not been able to stop sinning- missing a command is a sin, but if we confess it as such, He can cleanse us from all unrgihteousness but, without putting words in your mouth, even you would admit that you still sin. And if you say you don't, the bible calls you a liar. So have you sinned? You cannot call yourself saved until the end, until you know that you did not miss a command, leave out a work, or forget to confess a sin...do you really think you caught them all? You might not be saved![/quote]
Never said that I had no sin..I “had” a lot of sin..before the Lord cleansed me of it and delivered me out of my life of sin. Never said that I have not slipped since then and the sin nature is still there…so we have to be very careful that we do not follow the lust of the sin nature…but we don’t use the grace of God as a “crutch” to cover up sin or to commit sin…. 1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Because of grace…. I stopped going to the places I used to go, I don’t hang around with the same “worldly” friends, He cleansed me of a 32 year addiction to tobacco, He delivered me from a 20 year addiction to alcohol, He also cleansed me of 5 year addiction to drugs….I don’t go back and do those things again, I don’t have a desire to..you know why..because God cleansed me and once He does the cleansing you don’t go back. God did it, not me, God. Philipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: It is my part to be obedient to the Holy Spirit which now lives in me and resist the devil and the temptations that the devil brings up in my flesh. Remember Romans7:20 “sin that dwelleth in me” . That is what we fight the “sin that dwelleth in us”…but as being a servant of God and not a servant of sin anymore, we don’t do as we want, we do as God says and are submissive and obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit which lives in the truly regenerate man. Now, if a truly converted person does sin, the Holy Spirit will convict them and obeying the leading of the Spirit they will truly repent, turn from that sin, and will not commit that sin again because now they know that it is sin now and will take all precautions to avoid it.
Example for instance…An alcoholic does not see his addiction as being so terrible…until one day he is enlightened by God and cleansed of his addiction…Does that drunkard keep all the alcohol sitting around that he had before his conversion? Does he continue to go to the package store? Does he continue to go to the bar and hang around with his old friends? NO…If he is truly converted he has a new outlook on sin and wants nothing to do with “his former ignorance”, he is a “new creature” and will take up his life from that day forward in that manner.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
If your life is not drastically changed {as was Saul’s} with your profession of faith and your lifestyle/works do not match your profession…God’s Word says you are not saved.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Greek word for works as used here in the Scripture is ergon, {er'-gon} from a primary ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.
John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
1Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works,
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
-- to maintain good works. That is, to practice them ourselves, and by our example and exhortation to encourage others to practice them; and to argue in their defense against those who speak of them slightingly, as not necessary to salvation.
Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Learn here, ….That as Christianity is no barren and fruitless profession, but all persons professing religion ought to take care that good works may accompany their faith.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.