The "Threat of Grace"

[the doctor]

My pastor and I have been going through two books by Tim Keller "The Reason for God" and "The Prodigal God" both of which I highly recommend.

One of the many focuses of each book is that our salvation through Christ is a gracious gift and not "earned" through works or righteous acts. In fact the author maintains that even in our most honorable efforts to act according to Scripture our unpure motives puts us right back in the sinner category. So as we talked and read we came to the question of grace and why anyone would rather believe getting to heaven was a "works" based system?

I mean really, one hand you got a free gift you only have to accept and the other you have do this, dont do this etc. (not to take away from acting according to Scritptures instruction, we believe and the author maintains those actions should be out of gratitude, not of guilt or some attempt to control God through your acts) If someone ever maintains that gettign to heaven requires good deeds, ask them "How many?"

So why would anyone want the other? (this is the part that really hit home) as Keller was preaching (he is a Presbyterian minister in New York) on this subject a woman approached him after the service and said that if salvation was a gift that cant be earned with God, but only obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ then there wasnt anything God couldnt ask of her and that scared her. That my friends is what the author describes as the "threat of grace". There is nothing God cannot ask of you.

the doc

[Deep Woods]

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Greek for works is ergon, from a primary ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:



It seems to be that this Tim Keller knows more than God.

GOD'S Word is the truth!

[Deltamud77]

The works are a manifestation of the faith and conversion, not the other way around. Tim Keller is absolutely right. I have read The Prodigal God and it is fantastic. There is no way a person could be good enough to earn his way into heaven. However, if you are a believer that does not have an innate desire to work on behalf of God, you may not be a believer at all. By the way, all of those scriptures fit perfectly with the belief that works are a manifestation of faith. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith...this is a gift and not of yourself, so that no man can boast.

[gobama123]

There is no way a person could be good enough to earn his way into heaven..... For it is by grace you have been saved through faith...this is a gift and not of yourself, so that no man can boast.

That is all that any Christian needs to know.
Because you are a Christian makes you want to do good works.
God Made it real simple for us.

[the doctor]

It seems to be that this Tim Keller knows more than God.

not the case at all....faith without works is dead, Bible says so

but its faith that gets you there not the works, an extreme example on the far right of the spectrum (and not by any means condoning this way of life) is the murderer on the cross..."surely you will be with me today in paradise"...it was his faith, not by any means his deeds, that got him to heaven

and glad to know some others that have read his stuff really enjoyed both books

the doc

[Deep Woods]

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Both robbers sneered at Jesus at first, but this one came to himself and turned on his fellow robber in a rage.

What a surprising degree is shown here of repentance, faith, and other graces! And what abundance of good works, in his public confession of his sin, reproof of his fellow criminal, his honourable testimony to Christ, and profession of faith in him, while he was in so disgraceful circumstances as were stumbling even to his disciples! This shows the power of Divine grace. But it encourages none to put off their repentance to the last hour; since, as far as appears, this was the first time this criminal had an opportunity of knowing any thing of Christ, and his conversion was designed to put a peculiar glory on our Saviour in his lowest state, while his enemies derided him, and his own disciples either denied or forsook him. - John Wesley

[Caller1]

Why all the talk of works? Who is it that you think, or are being told, believe in works get you into heaven? This seems to be a common "attack/arguement" from Calvinist these days brought against other Christians. I keep hearing it.... ? Its like a political campaign and these are the Presbyterian talking points.

Done. Don't get in by works. Cool.

Now, is what you are really trying to say... is that a person doesn't actually have anything to do with his or her salvation experience. That people don't choose to have faith? I think those that have developed the "Talking Points" know that that reckoning won't fly well in view of the fact that we all "SEEM" to have something to do with what we seem to have something to do with.

As for the Threat of Grace, and God being able to ask anything of you.... must you not yield to the Spirit? Or is that just a "Seem like" your yielding. And let me say that I do believe that He can ask anything of you.

What about this.... does He really "ask"? Hard to have it both ways.

[hencutter]

works follow;they are NOT what makes you right with God,but a manifestation of our relationship with Him.

[the doctor]

works follow;they are NOT what makes you right with God,but a manifestation of our relationship with Him.

well put

Keller maintains that people would rather believe in a works for salvation system because if grace is truly the only way you are saved (and the Bible says we are only saved by grace through our faith in Jesus Christ) then God can/will ask/demand your all and people for the most part arent willing to accept giving all, hence it poses a threat

the doc

[Ordek Avci]

Why all the talk of works? Who is it that you think, or are being told, believe in works get you into heaven?

Just look at the post right above yours. Or read through the thread on predestination. You can see a strong argument for it just on these boards.

[skywalker]

To me, I have to break it down like this to get a grasp of it.

Its Savior vs Lord in our life. Many want Christ as their 'Savior', don't want to spend eternity in hell and want untold blessing in this life and heaven as their eternal home. However, many DO NOT want Christ as their 'Lord'. If Christ is, in fact their 'Lord', then they are nothing more than a servant and as a servant their 'Lord' can ask anything of them and they are to obey.

Ask some people who Jesus is. Many will say my 'Savior', but few will admit that He is MY 'Lord' and 'Savior'. I don't think you can have it one way, Christ must be Savior and Lord of your life.

[the doctor]

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=73138

read topic, especially bold type

most dont even realize they are "performance" or "works" driven

sola Christo or Christ Alone

the doc

[the doctor]

first works dont get you to heaven so we tend to focus on what does and doesnt get you to heaven, we want people to believe and know what it takes to get to heaven

second many people that dont go to church feel they arent good enough, or churches only want their money, or church makes them feel bad about their sin...see link http://www.provocativechurch.com/2009/0 ... hurch.html these are top reasons people dont go and its because they are being told or believe Faith is performance based

third many that go to church only go to "one-up" the next guy meaning they make themselves feel better by going to church and they feel they are better than the guy that didnt...."well I may not be a Saint, but comapred to him..."

so much of what we do and say in church is performance based and we dont even realize it...if youve ever muttered the words "God why is this happening to me? Im doing all the things I think you would have me do" then you are trying to control God through your performance...we are all guilty at times

the doc

[marty lee]

so what do you say to a man that walked with the LORD for ten years faithful to the best of his abilities and then "events" in his life crushed his "faith" and he just gave up? is he still going to heaven?or do you believe he was never "saved" to begin with altho for 10years you would have thought he was?? if he dies tomorrow what would you tell his family if they asked you do you think he went to heaven? lets say he doesnt go to church any more but isnt a "bad "person.......

[Ordek Avci]

so what do you say to a man that walked with the LORD for ten years faithful to the best of his abilities and then "events" in his life crushed his "faith" and he just gave up? is he still going to heaven?or do you believe he was never "saved" to begin with altho for 10years you would have thought he was?? if he dies tomorrow what would you tell his family if they asked you do you think he went to heaven? lets say he doesnt go to church any more but isnt a "bad "person.......

Hey man, welcome to the board.

This question was batted around for a while in the thread titled "Predestination." You should read through it if you've got the time.

The short answer I would give, would be something like the quote below. It's from one of the most prominent pastors in America, talking about this same sort of situation.

"I'll be very personal, to give it it's sharpest point. If in the coming years I commit apostasy and fall away from Christ, it will not be because I have not tasted of the word of God and the Spirit of God and the miracles of God. I have drunk of his word. The Spirit has touched me. I have seen his miracles and I have been his instrument for a few.

But if, over the next ten or twenty years, John Piper begins to cool off spiritually and lose interest in spiritual things and become more fascinated with making money and writing Christless books; and I buy the lie that a new wife would be exhilarating and that the children can fend for themselves and that the church of Christ is a drag and that the incarnation is a myth and that there is one life to live so let us eat drink and be merry—if that happens, then know that the truth is this: John Piper was mightily deceived in the first fifty years of his life. His faith was an alien vestige of his father's joy. His fidelity to his wife was a temporary passion and compliance with social pressure; his fatherhood the outworking of natural instincts. His preaching was driven by the love of words and crowds. His writing was a love affair with fame. And his praying was the deepest delusion of all—an attempt to get God to supply the resources of his vanity."

God help us all.

Chris