Predestination

[StraightUp]

You have both come to the point I was trying to reach.........either way, whether one becomes 'apostate' or was never truly 'saved' the person is still in a 'lost' state. How they 'got there' seems to be the real issue instead of actually leading them to the Savior to be 'saved', 'redeemed'. If the Armenians, Calvinists, whatever Baptist sect there may be would focus as much of their time and energy on reaching the lost as they do 'discussing' OSAS (perseverance of the saints) it would be amazing what could be accomplished. I am not trying to cause division, but on the contrary, bridge the gap........


Merry Christmas!

I agree we need to serve more and debate less, but we are talking about two different Gospels here. This isn't a minor issue and it has a profound effect on "reaching the lost".

[Deep Woods]

Lets look at the meaning of a word before continuing....

The word is abide, the Greek word for abide is meno, {men'-o} a primary verb; meaning to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own. - source Strong's Greek Dictionary

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a man abide not in me Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire; because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of his God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united: - Adam Clarke's Commentary

Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him. The union between the branch and the tree, when broken causes the branch to wither and dry up, just as one that does not abide, keep in vital union with Christ will wither and dry up, be cast into the fire and burned in the end.

There is the end of the man who is fruitless; because not vitally united to Jesus, he utterly perishes. What a change,--numbered one day with the branches of the true vine, and the next, burning in the fire. - Spurgeon's Devotional Commentary

Those who were once fruitful believers but afterward became spiritually dead are cast forth, like dead branches, as useless into the place of destruction. -Teacher's Commentary


God's Word speaks for itself.

This should drive any who professes to be a Christian to strive to devote themselves and their lives to Christ in a manner that would be a testimony to all that see or know them and not just walk around in "lip service" to Him. Working, not trying to merit salvation, but sincerely seeking to give in return, out of love to Christ, your life and way of living for the gift of salvation that you have been given.

[skywalker]

Two different gospels? I believe each teach Christ, born of a virgin, tempted as a man, yet without sin, crucified on a cross, spilling innocent, pure blood, arose on the 3rd day triumphant over death and sin and ascended to the right hand of the Father. To me, that is the Gospel, good news that we have a means to eternal life, through Jesus Christ. The only difference I can see is scriptural interpretation after salvation.

[RIPPY]

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matthew 7:21-22

[Ordek Avci]

Those who were once fruitful believers but afterward became spiritually dead are cast forth, like dead branches, as useless into the place of destruction.

Again, if you "became spiritually dead" then you were never "spiritually alive." The Bible cannot be more clear about this.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

The fact that people "fall away" is all that we need to say that they were never "with us" or "of us." Saving faith is faith that lasts until the end.

Mark 13:13 - And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Working, not trying to merit salvation, but sincerely seeking to give in return, out of love to Christ, your life and way of living for the gift of salvation that you have been given.

But if you have to work so hard to "keep" your salvation, how is that any different than working to merit it in the first place? It seems to me that either way you are depending on your works in order to gain God's favor, which the Bible repeatedly states is not possible.

Two different gospels?

As I said before, I'm not going to go so far as to call Deep Woods a preacher of a false Gospel, but it is a very unhealthy one, and one that sounds eerily similar to the one that sprang up in Galatia back in Paul's day.

Galatians 3:1-14 - O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

God's Word speaks for itself.

Yes, but men are sinful and use God's Word to justify a whole host of things. Just claiming that God's Word speaks for itself does not add anything to your argument. Showing what God's Word actually says through proper interpretation and critical study is what we should be about.

And, finally, welcome to the discussion RIPPY. I don't know if you have been here all along, but this is the first thing I remember you posting. How do you see those verses adding to our discussion? What did you have in mind?

[Deep Woods]

Yes, but men are sinful and use God's Word to justify a whole host of things.

Is that how you justify living just like the heathens of the "world"..gambling, and going to the worldly events, and whatever else your flesh lust after in the "world"?

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones. A powerful figure to show forth the contrast between the sanctimonious professions of the Pharisees and their unholy lives.




I am not a preacher, never claimed to be. I don't have alot of education as you do so I guess I am just stupid and unlearned. The Bible has been found to be written on a 5th grade level, its not rocket science.

The gospel that Jesus and His disciples preached was called false by most people, and not recieved by the majority of the people...Jesus Christ was crucified by the majority of the people, by those that were sure of their standing in the religous "circle" and the religious leaders of His time were the main cause of His crucifixion.


I would rather tell someone that there is a possibility of losing salvation/falling and have them be careful/dedicated in their life and walk with God,…..then get to judgement day and find out that a person can't,....
Rather than teach people that they can't lose their salvation/fall and have them live loose lifestyles, do worldly things, go worldly places, etc. and then get to judgement day and find out that they can/did....lose/fall....now that would be alot of blood on any man's hands.



People can live a loose life style if they want to...but as for me and my house....we will live by the standards in the Bible and I pray that I will make it to Heaven by the grace of God. And maybe, just maybe by living contrary to the "world", all it's sins and amusements, Christ light will shine through and someone will see that you can live for God in this "world" without being "just like everybody else"........



James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Ordek Avci]

Is that how you justify living just like the heathens of the "world"..gambling, and going to the worldly events, and whatever else your flesh lust after in the "world"?

I will be the first to admit that I am sinful and fall short of the glory of God. There is no doubt that I have rebelled against the God that loves me in ways that are inexcusable. I love this world more than I love God a lot of the time. I do not deny any of that. But at the same time, you are making some pretty harsh accusations that are almost completely based on assumptions. If you'd like to discuss my salvation and/or my morality, then I'd be happy to have that conversation in private.

I am not a preacher, never claimed to be. I don't have alot of education as you do so I guess I am just stupid and unlearned. The Bible has been found to be written on a 5th grade level, its not rocket science

I do apologize if you think I was talking down to you. I never meant that. I apologize if it came across that way.

And I agree that the Bible should not be that hard to understand. But it's easy to see that throughout history and throughout our world today, people can start with the same Bible we have and end up in totally different places theologically. The Calvinist believes he is reading it right, just like the Arminian does. And the OSAS person believes he is reading it right just like the one who doesn't hold to that belief. And just like the followers of Jesus believe we are reading it right while the followers of Joseph Smith and Mohammed believe they are reading it right. How we determine what the Bible is really saying is not based on what we want it to say or what we feel about certain ideas, but only on a careful and thorough reading of Scripture. Therefore, I don't want to tell anybody anything other than what I think the Bible itself is saying to us. And when we claim that Bible teaches something, we should be able to explain where exactly the Bible teaches that something, and to be able to defend our interpretations against objections. That is all this thread was meant to do, to examine the Biblical evidence for differing views of God's sovereignty in salvation.

I would rather tell someone that there is a possibility of losing salvation/falling and have them be careful/dedicated in their life and walk with God,…..then get to judgement day and find out that a person can't,....
Rather than teach people that they can't lose their salvation/fall and have them live loose lifestyles, do worldly things, go worldly places, etc. and then get to judgement day and find out that they can/did....lose/fall....now that would be alot of blood on any man's hands.

I would agree with you here, except those are not the only two options. I would go with teaching that God is the one who is keeping and guarding a person's salvation and that they can be assured of that salvation by seeing how God is working in them and through them to grow them in obedience and service to Himself. I want people to know what the Bible says, live like the Bible says to live, and give all the glory to God.

I hope that if this discussion continues, we can stay on topic, hash out Scripture together, and avoid any name-calling. My apologies again, if I in any way got away from that myself.

Chris

[GearOut]

ok. I am caught up on the topic and am ready to join the discussion.

First, thank you all for sharing the Word and your opinions on it.

Second, many (if not all) of you have a much deeper level of recollection on the actual text of the Word, the history of doctrines that have developed from the Word, and the common arguments. But I enjoy discussion and have spent a lot of time trying to grasp this issue, so as a precursor/disclaimer, my reply is just a discussion, not as a stance.

However, after reading this entire post, I am still confused by what you all think Predestination is.

IMO, Predestination starts with 2 issues. First, whether or not there are "chosen people" predestined to be saved. And this is what I think you are all arguing over. It seems like both sides have valid arguments, and people can choose what they want to believe.

BUT that brings up the real issue of predestination to me. - which is whether or not God has chosen what is going to happen before it happens. That is a definition of predestination to me.

This idea gets even murkier to me in relation to faith. So hopefully, I can flesh out my thought out so y'all can understand. But excuse me if I lose you, I am kind of lost myself.

If one uses this idea of “having faith" in God - ie believe, worship the Word of God, and through this faith you will be saved, then how can there be free will at all because it seems to create a spectrum of faith versus free will.

For example on one extreme someone may believe that God laid out everything that is going to happen already, and have a complete faith in God, that would be the purest form of predestination to me...and if God is really omnipotent and all knowing, this idea is not impossible.

On the other extreme, is that everyone has complete free will and you choose your own destiny. So through believing and living in the Word you can be saved by grace, but also you can make your choice not to and go to hell regardless who you are.

On a macro scale, this sounds similar to the first issue of predestination – being the question of whether or not there are certain people that are predestined as the chosen people. But that is not the dog I want in the fight.

I want a more micro scale practical thought. And that is in every decision that you make every day whether or not this idea of having faith in god means giving up free will. Because to me, if you have complete faith in God, it’s hard to think we have any free will.

Hopefully my issue is clear to me – any thoughts?

Happy New Year!

[Deep Woods]

I will be the first to admit that I am sinful and fall short of the glory of God. There is no doubt that I have rebelled against the God that loves me in ways that are inexcusable. I love this world more than I love God a lot of the time. I do not deny any of that. But at the same time, you are making some pretty harsh accusations that are almost completely based on assumptions.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

GAMBLING


Worldy Events, Idolatry, & Revellings
Forum: Sports Forum Topic: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #13 - Locked Fri

Ordek Avci
Post subject: Re: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #13 - Locked Fri
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:53 pm


Replies: 12
Views: 59 Friday - Auburn at Alabama

Sat
Clemson at South Carolina
Florida State at Florida
Tennessee at Kentucky
Arkansas at LSU
Georgia at Georgia Tech

Utah at Brigham Young
Oklahoma St at Oklahoma
Arizona at Arizona State

Tiebreaker - Ole Miss 34 at Miss State 16
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forum: Sports Forum Topic: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #12

Ordek Avci
Post subject: Re: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #12
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:29 pm


Replies: 21
Views: 70 Chattanooga @ Alabama
Mississippi State @ Arkansas
FIU @ Florida
LSU @ Ole Miss
Vanderbilt @ Tennessee
Kentucky @ Georgia

Ohio State @ Michigan
Penn State @ Michigan State
California @ Stanford

Tiebreaker --- Tulsa 17 @ Southern Miss 27
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forum: Sports Forum Topic: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #11

Ordek Avci
Post subject: Re: 2009 MSDUCKS College Pick'em Contest - Week #11
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:43 pm


Replies: 20
Views: 87 Florida @ South Carolina
Alabama @ Miss State
Louisiana Tech @ LSU
Tennessee @ Ole Miss
Kentucky @ Vanderbilt
Auburn @ Georgia
Troy @ Arkansas

Utah @ TCU
Iowa @ Ohio State

Tiebreaker --- Texas Tech 38 @ Oklahoma St 48

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worldly Events & Idolatry

Forum: Sports Forum Topic: Ingram for Heisman

Ordek Avci
Post subject: Re: Ingram for Heisman
Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:58 pm


Replies: 11
Views: 155 Spiller all the way. Just amazing what that man has done. The only player in the FBS to score a TD in every game. He has scored five different ways this season, with a punt return, kick return, rushing TD, receiving TD, and a passing TD. Just ran for over 200 yards, over 10 yards per carry, in the A...


Putting the filth of a cigar in God’s Temple…yes, your body if you are saved is God’s Temple.
Do you read anywhere that Jesus Christ smoked? Christ would have really been some testimony sitting around with a cigar/cigarette in His mouth…Huh?

Forum: General Discussion Forum Topic: CIGAR HOOKUP

Ordek Avci
Post subject: Re: CIGAR HOOKUP
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:52 pm


Replies: 11
Views: 420 I know you wanted some Macanudos, but if you get a chance you should try some of the Avalon cigars, if you haven't already. They're a MS company and have some great cigars. I don't remember the name, but the one they sell with the red band may be my favorite cigar.



These fruits are really glorifying GOD….Huh?

No..these fruits are the lust of your flesh…what you want to do….your selfish desires.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matthew 3:8 Let your change of heart be seen in your works: (Bible in Basic English Version)

In other words if you are going to profess to be a Christain (which by the way means Christ like) let your change of heart be seen in your life, your way of living, where you go, what you are a part of….that means show that you have turned from your sinful ways, sinful life, sinful friends, worldly events, worldly actions, fleshly lust and such. Not just by “professing and saying you “believe”…..
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If a person knows that they are sinful then its time to get down on your knees and fight like a man, ask God to give you strength to fight your worst enemies…yourself, your flesh, your lust!
And stop tempting God and using His Word and Goodness as a “crutch” and to justify sin.
*********Study the apostle Paul’s life**************
No one can turn from their sin without God, thats why we see people profess to be Christians but still live in sin and then try to justify their sin by using “grace” to cover it…….when the truth is they don’t have a relationship with God at all.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I want people to know what the Bible says, live like the Bible says to live, and give all the glory to God.

If you want this then why do you not live like it says to live….it is do as I say, not as I do……it seems a lot of people have that theory today. That’s giving God all the glory..Huh?

If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you don’t live like the people of the “world”.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you don’t do things like the “world”
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you don’t go to “worldly” events.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you don’t take part in idolatry of heathen sports figures, movie stars, music stars, etc….


If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do turn from sin.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do separate yourself from the “world”.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do resist your desires, your fleshly lust.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do live a life so as to show that you are Christ like.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do fast, pray and seek God in everything.
If you want to be a witness for Jesus Christ you do deny self and what you want or like.

And when we claim that Bible teaches something, we should be able to explain where exactly the Bible teaches that something, and to be able to defend our interpretations against objections.

Which is what has been done, repeatedly…..by giving you Scripture after Scripture and you somehow have the “power” to revoke Gods saving power on Lot's wife, the people in the wilderness, etc.....
You contradict what Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly states, and all the following scriptures shown below…

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I guess the Gods own angels were never “saved”…and if they were not offered a chance for repentance {as you claim}, which God is God, He does not have to give another chance for repentance…… then we need to understand what that shows and clearly states…..which is this

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

How can a person fall from something they have never been on or been a part of?
How can a person be led away from something that they have never known or joined to?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How can a persons name be blotted out of a book if their name was never truly in the book?
It can’t….which is very clear by this scripture, that if a persons name is added to the book of life (salvation), that person overcomes the sin and the temptations of this world (regeneration, sanctification), then on the day of judgement they shall be admitted to the glorious reward of Heaven. But…..If they do not overcome and “abide” in that state then their name will be blotted out of the book of life and will not be acknowledged before the Father.

People want God’s promises of salvation but not in His threats of judgement.


The word "abide" seems to have a new meaning or is just thrown out according to you.

Well here is that meaning again for the word "abide" and how it is used in John 15:6.
The Greek word for abide is meno, {men'-o} a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own. - source Strong's Greek Dictionary

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a man abide not in me Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire; because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of his God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united: - Adam Clarke's Commentary

Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him. The union between the branch and the tree, when broken causes the branch to wither and dry up, just as one that does not abide, keep in vital union with Christ will wither and dry up, be cast into the fire and burned in the end.

There is the end of the man who is fruitless; because not vitally united to Jesus, he utterly perishes. What a change,--numbered one day with the branches of the true vine, and the next, burning in the fire. - Spurgeon's Devotional Commentary

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

What do you think would be today if Jesus had not kept His Father’s commandments?


One should also understand what the word saint means........

The Greek word for saint is hagios, hag'-ee-os - (compare with hagnos) ;sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

hagnos, hag-nos' ; properly, clean, i.e. (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect:--chaste, clean, pure.

We must live holy lives, separated from the world and it’s ways, amusements, actions, banquetings, revellings, and such because we are ‘saved’, ‘redeemed’..NOT because we are trying to earn our salvation.

For there to be perseverance, there must first be saints, with that said…..we all should better check ourselves, ….huh?


1Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The word tempt, when applied to man, means to present motives or inducements to sin: when used with reference to God, it means, to try his patience, to provoke his anger, or to act in such a way as to see how much he will bear, and how long he will endure the wickedness and perverseness of men. Which is clearly stated here …God will be provoked to anger and turn a person/persons out and may even send fiery serpents to destroy them.


1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


Put your faith in the Lord God in Heaven, turn from all sin, forsake your old ways, your old heathen friends, the ways of the “world”, the parties, the worldly events, the worldly entertainments, all your fleshly lust, “come out from among them and be ye separate”, stop “tempting” God, live a holy, sanctified, dedicated life and suffer with Christ and you shall reign with Him.

Do the opposite and continue abusing the gift of grace, justifying sin, and you may just find yourself in the same position as those destroyed by the serpents……even blotted out of the book of life…..and remember this….a persons name has to be written in the book of life first (salvation)…for it to be blotted out.

The devil himself is the one that told the lie “Ye shall not surely die:” and people are still believing the very same lie today. Keep believing the old fool, the devil and his false doctrine of “osas”…...after reading GOD’s Word, for me…the devil nor his false doctrine are worth listening to.

Have a blessed day

[skywalker]

Deep,
Before anyone is 'called out', please read about the life of Peter. Please also look for a 'beam' in your own eye before pointing out a 'speck' in someone else's.

It amazes me that grown men cannot have a civil discussion about biblical doctrine without someone getting personal and pointing out other's so called 'short comings', as we all have them. I was afraid this discussion would take a turn for the worse and now it has, pity.

Yall have a great day!

Hebrews 13:1- Let brotherly love continue.

Luke Bozeman (skywalker)

[StraightUp]

While I disagree with Deep on the original debate, I have no problem with him for pointing out some fallacies in another's position. Although brutal, he's just defending his point of view.

[skywalker]

Why? This is a theological debate, not a personal debate. I happen to have the same stance as Deep Woods on the theological side, however, I do not see any reason to publicly humiliate (remember, we are Brothers in Christ) one because you disagree. We can each point out the failures of another man to justify our beliefs and actions. Any theological debate should be able to stand on its own merits without descending into a personal attack. This is the very reason I hesitated to even start posting on this part of the forums.

[Doc & Nash]

Why? This is a theological debate, not a personal debate...... I do not see any reason to publicly humiliate (remember, we are Brothers in Christ) one because you disagree. We can each point out the failures of another man to justify our beliefs and actions. Any theological debate should be able to stand on its own merits without descending into a personal attack. This is the very reason I hesitated to even start posting on this part of the forums.

I agree and FWIW it is actions like these of "So Called Christians" that lead me to put some distance between me and the church and most deffiantly religion as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how most people are willing to take something out of context to make them selves look better to the masses.... Since I am a betting man, Deep Woods, I would be willing to bet that your a Southern Baptist, from my experience they are the are the worst at pointing out others shortcomings.....

Really funny thing is I have only been reading this forum for less than a month and this is the last time I will bother. Because when you get a group of Christian together you always end up in a pissing match as to who is Holyer. When the truth is we all just a bunch of sinning pieces of $#!+.... Enjoy, I am going back to busting Topwaters and argueing about Robos...

[Ordek Avci]

While I disagree with Deep on the original debate, I have no problem with him for pointing out some fallacies in another's position. Although brutal, he's just defending his point of view.

I'm okay with anyone pointing out fallacies in my position. However, I don't see where he has done that. Nor has he answered the objections that I have raised.

to publicly humiliate... We can each point out the failures of another man

I'm not humiliated. If I thought those things were "failures" of mine, I wouldn't put them on the internet for everyone to see. As I said in a previous post, when this same sort of tactic was used, I am happy to discuss my morality and/or salvation with anyone. However, that's not what this topic was created for. And with that in mind...

Which is what has been done, repeatedly…..by giving you Scripture after Scripture and you somehow have the “power” to revoke Gods saving power on Lot's wife, the people in the wilderness, etc.....
You contradict what Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly states, and all the following scriptures shown below…

Where have I gone wrong interpreting these passages? You stated your Scriptures and how you interpreted them. I offered a rebuttal with a different interpretation. I'd be happy for you to critique my reading and understanding of these passages. And I am not above admitting when I am wrong, if that is what the Scriptures show

I guess the Gods own angels were never “saved”…and if they were not offered a chance for repentance {as you claim},

.
No, they were not saved. They had nothing to be saved from. They had not sinned. Once they sinned, they were not offered a chance at repentance. Jesus did not die for the fallen angels. That's what Hebrews 2:16 clearly states. Again, I am willing to admit my error if it shown to me plainly and convincingly.

Since I am a betting man, Deep Woods, I would be willing to bet that your a Southern Baptist, from my experience they are the are the worst at pointing out others shortcomings.....

Actually, I'm the Southern Baptist. Dang.

When the truth is we all just a bunch of sinning pieces of $#!+.

And, finally, something we can all agree on.

Sorry things went down this path. It's not what I intended.

[StraightUp]

Why? This is a theological debate, not a personal debate...... I do not see any reason to publicly humiliate (remember, we are Brothers in Christ) one because you disagree. We can each point out the failures of another man to justify our beliefs and actions. Any theological debate should be able to stand on its own merits without descending into a personal attack. This is the very reason I hesitated to even start posting on this part of the forums.

I agree and FWIW it is actions like these of "So Called Christians" that lead me to put some distance between me and the church and most deffiantly religion as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how most people are willing to take something out of context to make them selves look better to the masses.... Since I am a betting man, Deep Woods, I would be willing to bet that your a Southern Baptist, from my experience they are the are the worst at pointing out others shortcomings.....

Really funny thing is I have only been reading this forum for less than a month and this is the last time I will bother. Because when you get a group of Christian together you always end up in a pissing match as to who is Holyer. When the truth is we all just a bunch of sinning pieces of $#!+.... Enjoy, I am going back to busting Topwaters and argueing about Robos...

Doc/Nash, Im the Southern Baptist too. Deep Woods is Church of Christ, I'd venture to say.