I am not by any means qualified to answer the original question, and truth be know probably one of the least Christian Christians I know. I grew up in a Southern Baptist home and went to a Christian school and really got burnt out on the church thing because I got sick of watching people play religion as a way to keep up with the Jones. I have a little back ground studying the bible, all of which was forced upon me, not by free will ( see the above statement about keeping up with the Jones). Thru my studies I have come to ask myself one question. If God truly is all knowing and already knew what decisions we would make before He ever created the heavens and earth, then why did He do it? If He already knows the choices that you and I are going to make to the scenarios He is going to place you in then why even go thru the actions? Seems like a huge waste of time. I know He has all the time in the world but where is the rational to it? Is life some sort of cruel game, where God Almighty is just sitting on His throne watching his self made reality show? So that puts me to this? Predestination and free will can not go hand in hand. If there is free will then there could not be a God as we know it to be taught from the Bible. God would not be God because He would not know the choices we are going to make. But on the other hand, if predestination is in fact in existence then why as humans do we even try? Our life has been predetermined and there is nothing we can do to change it.... Personally I don’t buy that. I like to believe that the choices I make are my decisions, and they directly influence and change the outcome of my life, so that puts me at one of two things... If predestination is in fact the way life is, then this thing we call life is a horrible joke be cause no matter what we do nothing will change the final outcome between us going to heaven or hell because it is Predetermined. If you believe in Freewill (and I do) then at some point you would have to question the biblical teaching of whether or not God is perfect. Because if there is TRUE freewill then God would not know the decisions we are going to make, so therefore he would not be perfect, or all knowing. So if freewill is the case then is God actually God?
I guess that is were faith steps in, and in the Grand Scheme of things one just has to believe. As a Christian if I am wrong and there is no God then what have I lost? Not much, I lived a good life, had a good time, and made a bunch of friends, maybe even made a difference in someones life. But if I was not a Christian and there is a God then I have lost everything….
Predestination
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Doc & Nash
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Re: Predestination
Conservation is number one to all true outdoorsmen
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Trey Edwards
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The yet to be named Chocolate Dawg
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Deltamud77
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Re: Predestination
D&N, you bring great questions that will not be answered until we are in glory. I believe in predestination, but also know that there is some degree of free will. Adam & Eve are the perfect illustration of free will. When they made that decision, it brought sin into the world which we are all bound by until set free by God through Christ. Therefore one cannot assume if they are not "saved" that their decisions are from a neutral standpoint as they are bound by sin. Being bound by sin will cause one to choose the sinful way every time (not that God cannot use that to His glory too).
Moreover, to me, I don't care if I don't have "free will". I really don't even know what that means. All of my decisions are based on factors that are outside of my being. They are based on stimulus and situation and make decisions for me to an extent. The intellect that I have helps me make decisions based on this stimuli. My decisions are not "free" though. In that sense, I think "free will" is a misunderstood and perhaps in a eternal sense overrated concept. People like to believe they have free will to do whatever because they want to believe they control ever aspect of their life. That is simply not the case no matter what you believe about predestination. I speak of this separate from consequence, even.
One last thing, we were not put here for our own glory...we were clearly put here for God's glory. Therefore, if we are a cosmic puppet show, it makes no difference to me as long as God is glorified. If I am merely a puppet, I don't know the difference and don't care because by and through grace, I know God.
Moreover, to me, I don't care if I don't have "free will". I really don't even know what that means. All of my decisions are based on factors that are outside of my being. They are based on stimulus and situation and make decisions for me to an extent. The intellect that I have helps me make decisions based on this stimuli. My decisions are not "free" though. In that sense, I think "free will" is a misunderstood and perhaps in a eternal sense overrated concept. People like to believe they have free will to do whatever because they want to believe they control ever aspect of their life. That is simply not the case no matter what you believe about predestination. I speak of this separate from consequence, even.
One last thing, we were not put here for our own glory...we were clearly put here for God's glory. Therefore, if we are a cosmic puppet show, it makes no difference to me as long as God is glorified. If I am merely a puppet, I don't know the difference and don't care because by and through grace, I know God.
Last edited by Deltamud77 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ordek Avci
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Re: Predestination
Alright, my ten minute response before I go to dinner.
Hebrews 6 was a tough one for me. I kept waiting and waiting for it to be brought up, because it has always been the one that stuck in my craw too, and for the same reasons that have already been mentioned. The language makes it sound like the person in question had been saved and then lost his faith. At first reading of verses 4-6, that's what I would have to conclude. But, thankfully, we're given more than just verses 4-6.
There are two things about these verses that have convinced me that the writer does NOT intend to say that you could lose your salvation.
1. The immediate context. The biggest clue to me that the writer is actually talking about people who were never saved is the verses surrounding these few verses. First of all, the chapter opens with the writer hoping to leave behind the elementary doctrine of Christ, namely, in v. 1, repentance from dead works and a faith toward God. It seems to me that the writer is opening up this chapter, and even looking back into the last part of chapter 5, by lamenting the fact that though the hearers have been taught these basics in the past, they don't seem to have grasped them and put them into practice. Therefore, in my opinion, the writer seems to be contrasting not those who have known and fallen away, but those who have heard the Gospel and not responded with repentance and faith. And, as a side note, v. 3 is another amazing verse, that says that God may or may not permit the reader to respond and grow in faith. God is in control.
Another reason I believe the passage is talking about saved vs. never saved people, and not people who were once saved, is the verses right after 4-6. Verse 7 opens with a "For" which is a clue that the author is about to state something that either explains more thoroughly his last statement, or provides proof of his last statement being true. Verses 7 and 8 are clearly talking about one field that produces fruit and one field that does not, not one field that produces fruit for a while and then stops producing fruit. This is very similar language to the Matthew 7 passage about the good tree and the bad tree. Again, the idea is that those who are good fields or good trees will produce good fruit and those that are bad fields or bad trees will not. The comparison is clearly meant to show the difference between true followers of Jesus and those who are not true followers.
And 2. I struggled with the language myself, for a long time, because it does sound like salvation language. But I actually think that Bible does teach that there is a way in which the Holy Spirit is given to those who don't believe. And I find evidence of this in the Old Testament. In many places there are pagan kings that are said to be God's "annointed," which, shockingly enough has been translated into Greek and then into English as Messiah. This is shocking because we are used to using this kind of term for Jesus alone. But, amazingly, in the book of Isaiah, Cyrus, King of Persia, is called God's Messiah. (Is. 45:1) Just a few verses prior, he is called God's "shepherd", again, language normally only used for Jesus. While no one that I know of would argue that Cyrus was actually saved, the Bible talks of him being God's anointed, his "Messiah." The other times the "anointed" language is used is with kings, prophets, and priests, and it's usually seen as God's special blessing, guidance, etc. of that person. It is also generally agreed, though I am running out of time and can't fully expound on this, that God's "anointing" in the Old Testament was God pouring out his Holy Spirit. Not every believing person pre-Christ got the Holy Spirit, only a chosen, or "anointed" few. With this in mind, I think there is reason to believe that people who are not saved and who will never be saved can partake of the Holy Spirit.
And I will just copy and paste a short paragraph from John Piper which I think is amazingly powerful and should make us all repent, ask God to hold us up in faith, and praise him for his good work in us.
I'll be very personal, to give it it's sharpest point. If in the coming years I commit apostasy and fall away from Christ, it will not be because I have not tasted of the word of God and the Spirit of God and the miracles of God. I have drunk of his word. The Spirit has touched me. I have seen his miracles and I have been his instrument for a few.
But if, over the next ten or twenty years, John Piper begins to cool off spiritually and lose interest in spiritual things and become more fascinated with making money and writing Christless books; and I buy the lie that a new wife would be exhilarating and that the children can fend for themselves and that the church of Christ is a drag and that the incarnation is a myth and that there is one life to live so let us eat drink and be merry—if that happens, then know that the truth is this: John Piper was mightily deceived in the first fifty years of his life. His faith was an alien vestige of his father's joy. His fidelity to his wife was a temporary passion and compliance with social pressure; his fatherhood the outworking of natural instincts. His preaching was driven by the love of words and crowds. His writing was a love affair with fame. And his praying was the deepest delusion of all—an attempt to get God to supply the resources of his vanity.
And DnN, I thoroughly appreciate your candor. We need more people thinking and talking like you. Too many people don't consider these things deeply enough. I'd like to comment on some of the things you said, but I just don't have time right now. Two jobs and being in the middle of finals doesn't leave me with much time these days.
Y'all take care and God bless.
Chris
Hebrews 6 was a tough one for me. I kept waiting and waiting for it to be brought up, because it has always been the one that stuck in my craw too, and for the same reasons that have already been mentioned. The language makes it sound like the person in question had been saved and then lost his faith. At first reading of verses 4-6, that's what I would have to conclude. But, thankfully, we're given more than just verses 4-6.
There are two things about these verses that have convinced me that the writer does NOT intend to say that you could lose your salvation.
1. The immediate context. The biggest clue to me that the writer is actually talking about people who were never saved is the verses surrounding these few verses. First of all, the chapter opens with the writer hoping to leave behind the elementary doctrine of Christ, namely, in v. 1, repentance from dead works and a faith toward God. It seems to me that the writer is opening up this chapter, and even looking back into the last part of chapter 5, by lamenting the fact that though the hearers have been taught these basics in the past, they don't seem to have grasped them and put them into practice. Therefore, in my opinion, the writer seems to be contrasting not those who have known and fallen away, but those who have heard the Gospel and not responded with repentance and faith. And, as a side note, v. 3 is another amazing verse, that says that God may or may not permit the reader to respond and grow in faith. God is in control.
Another reason I believe the passage is talking about saved vs. never saved people, and not people who were once saved, is the verses right after 4-6. Verse 7 opens with a "For" which is a clue that the author is about to state something that either explains more thoroughly his last statement, or provides proof of his last statement being true. Verses 7 and 8 are clearly talking about one field that produces fruit and one field that does not, not one field that produces fruit for a while and then stops producing fruit. This is very similar language to the Matthew 7 passage about the good tree and the bad tree. Again, the idea is that those who are good fields or good trees will produce good fruit and those that are bad fields or bad trees will not. The comparison is clearly meant to show the difference between true followers of Jesus and those who are not true followers.
And 2. I struggled with the language myself, for a long time, because it does sound like salvation language. But I actually think that Bible does teach that there is a way in which the Holy Spirit is given to those who don't believe. And I find evidence of this in the Old Testament. In many places there are pagan kings that are said to be God's "annointed," which, shockingly enough has been translated into Greek and then into English as Messiah. This is shocking because we are used to using this kind of term for Jesus alone. But, amazingly, in the book of Isaiah, Cyrus, King of Persia, is called God's Messiah. (Is. 45:1) Just a few verses prior, he is called God's "shepherd", again, language normally only used for Jesus. While no one that I know of would argue that Cyrus was actually saved, the Bible talks of him being God's anointed, his "Messiah." The other times the "anointed" language is used is with kings, prophets, and priests, and it's usually seen as God's special blessing, guidance, etc. of that person. It is also generally agreed, though I am running out of time and can't fully expound on this, that God's "anointing" in the Old Testament was God pouring out his Holy Spirit. Not every believing person pre-Christ got the Holy Spirit, only a chosen, or "anointed" few. With this in mind, I think there is reason to believe that people who are not saved and who will never be saved can partake of the Holy Spirit.
And I will just copy and paste a short paragraph from John Piper which I think is amazingly powerful and should make us all repent, ask God to hold us up in faith, and praise him for his good work in us.
I'll be very personal, to give it it's sharpest point. If in the coming years I commit apostasy and fall away from Christ, it will not be because I have not tasted of the word of God and the Spirit of God and the miracles of God. I have drunk of his word. The Spirit has touched me. I have seen his miracles and I have been his instrument for a few.
But if, over the next ten or twenty years, John Piper begins to cool off spiritually and lose interest in spiritual things and become more fascinated with making money and writing Christless books; and I buy the lie that a new wife would be exhilarating and that the children can fend for themselves and that the church of Christ is a drag and that the incarnation is a myth and that there is one life to live so let us eat drink and be merry—if that happens, then know that the truth is this: John Piper was mightily deceived in the first fifty years of his life. His faith was an alien vestige of his father's joy. His fidelity to his wife was a temporary passion and compliance with social pressure; his fatherhood the outworking of natural instincts. His preaching was driven by the love of words and crowds. His writing was a love affair with fame. And his praying was the deepest delusion of all—an attempt to get God to supply the resources of his vanity.
And DnN, I thoroughly appreciate your candor. We need more people thinking and talking like you. Too many people don't consider these things deeply enough. I'd like to comment on some of the things you said, but I just don't have time right now. Two jobs and being in the middle of finals doesn't leave me with much time these days.
Y'all take care and God bless.
Chris
Anyone can be a fisherman in May.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Deltamud77
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Re: Predestination
Anyone have anymore thoughts on the topic? I have really enjoyed the answers given, explanation of beliefs and more than anything else, have enjoyed the fact that people can actually disagree is a manner that is cordial and not disrespectful. Obviously, this must be indicative of grace.
Re: Predestination
this is a great topic. i want to read the whole thread before i respond. I have a lot of questions and interest in this topic, but usually nobody wants to talk about it.
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Ordek Avci
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Re: Predestination
I'm still here and the semester is over, so if y'all have questions, post them up and I'll do my best at answering them.
Reading and thinking hard about Romans 8 and 9, and Ephesians 2, is a better place to get answers, though.
Reading and thinking hard about Romans 8 and 9, and Ephesians 2, is a better place to get answers, though.
Anyone can be a fisherman in May.
-Ernest Hemingway
-Ernest Hemingway
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Deep Woods
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Re: Predestination
If you don't think one can fall/lose their salvation.......
Why don't you just live like you want, do like you want, commit all the sins that you can, live just like the rest of the world, and see how you come out when you stand before The One and Only Almighty GOD?
Oh wait a minute........thats what most people are already doing......?
And some are helping the devil push them right on over the line.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall
they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:2-4
[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:10-14
There are many more verses of scripture which tell us we must live right after we are saved if we intend to go to Heaven.
From a logical point of view, the greatest assurance and security for a believer is to be opposed to the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. If the OSAS {once saved always saved} people are correct, and the people that don't believe in OSAS are wrong, the worst that can happen to the people that believe the OSAS doctrine is wrong is to learn that they were always eternally secure and didn’t have to live such a dedicated life.
On the other hand, if the OSAS person is wrong, they can miss Heaven.
Is there anyone reading this willing to take that chance?
My strong encouragement to you is to read your Bible. God’s Word is truth.
You can argue this if you want to here....BUT....you will not argue it when you stand before your Maker.
People, people, people STOP believing the lies of the devil and his workers...........read your Bible, repent, pray without ceasing, and draw near to God before its too late!!!!
Why don't you just live like you want, do like you want, commit all the sins that you can, live just like the rest of the world, and see how you come out when you stand before The One and Only Almighty GOD?
Oh wait a minute........thats what most people are already doing......?
And some are helping the devil push them right on over the line.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall
they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:2-4
[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:10-14
There are many more verses of scripture which tell us we must live right after we are saved if we intend to go to Heaven.
From a logical point of view, the greatest assurance and security for a believer is to be opposed to the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. If the OSAS {once saved always saved} people are correct, and the people that don't believe in OSAS are wrong, the worst that can happen to the people that believe the OSAS doctrine is wrong is to learn that they were always eternally secure and didn’t have to live such a dedicated life.
On the other hand, if the OSAS person is wrong, they can miss Heaven.
Is there anyone reading this willing to take that chance?
My strong encouragement to you is to read your Bible. God’s Word is truth.
You can argue this if you want to here....BUT....you will not argue it when you stand before your Maker.
People, people, people STOP believing the lies of the devil and his workers...........read your Bible, repent, pray without ceasing, and draw near to God before its too late!!!!
Biblical assurance of salvation does not flow from a past decision or a prayer, but from the examination of one’s enduring lifestyle in the light of Scripture.
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
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StraightUp
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Re: Predestination
If you don't think one can fall/lose their salvation.......
Why don't you just live like you want, do like you want, commit all the sins that you can, live just like the rest of the world, and see how you come out when you stand before The One and Only Almighty GOD? --Deep Woods
I see you are back again. LOL.
I don't "just live like I want" and I believe in the security of the believer. That is not what a redeemed person should do if he is humbled by God's grace. He doesn't want to make light of grace, so he seeks holiness out of gratitude. Not as a way of trying to merit salvation. If you think you can be good enough to earn your salvation...you will be the one surprised when you stand before the One and Only Almighty God.
Why don't you just live like you want, do like you want, commit all the sins that you can, live just like the rest of the world, and see how you come out when you stand before The One and Only Almighty GOD? --Deep Woods
I see you are back again. LOL.
I don't "just live like I want" and I believe in the security of the believer. That is not what a redeemed person should do if he is humbled by God's grace. He doesn't want to make light of grace, so he seeks holiness out of gratitude. Not as a way of trying to merit salvation. If you think you can be good enough to earn your salvation...you will be the one surprised when you stand before the One and Only Almighty God.
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Deep Woods
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Re: Predestination
StraightUp wrote:I see you are back again. LOL.
I don't "just live like I want" and I believe in the security of the believer. That is not what a redeemed person should do if he is humbled by God's grace. He doesn't want to make light of grace, so he seeks holiness out of gratitude. Not as a way of trying to merit salvation. If you think you can be good enough to earn your salvation...you will be the one surprised when you stand before the One and Only Almighty God.
That’s it you don’t live right after salvation to earn your way to Heaven, You live right because you love Jesus Christ and what He has done for you, you don’t want to do anything to dissatisfy Him or make Him displeased in you. { 1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (KJV)
1John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure. (MKJV)} You cleanse yourself, purify yourself as He is pure. You don’t say “Well if I sin He will forgive me, If I do this thing just this one time He will forgive me.” (1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. )
The majority of people in todays society think because they put their name on a church role and they go to church Sunday morning that they are saved, but they still live the same way as their heathen friends, go to the same places, do the same things as all their heathen friends, but bless God they’re saved just because they look good on the outside. On the inside they are still the same old person they always were, they lust after the same things, go the same places, covet their neighbors wife, home, automobile, attend the same heathenistic parties, feast, idol worshipping events, watch the same old tv shows as they always did, etc.,etc.,etc……
I am going to tell you when God saved me He changed my life, I don’t care to go to all the parties, the little get togethers with drinking of alcohol, cussing and heathenistic ways. I now do not have any desire to be apart of any of those things. It’s not that I am better than anyone but the Scripture says in 2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, (KJV)
2Corinthians 6:17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you (MKJV)
Can a person get hit by a 40 ton log truck and not be totally changed?
NO, they cannot!!
Well how can people claim to have had a one on one experience with God and not be totally changed? God is ALOT larger than a 40 ton log truck.
If a person professes to be a Christian then they don’t do things or go places that may cause a weaker brother to stumble.
How does it look to a new Christian to see someone that is a professing Christian and is supposed to be further along in their walk with God, but yet they are doing something that is is questionable according to God’s Word? A person professes to be a Christian but you walk in their home and their watching a tv show with cussing, naked women, etc…They go to parties/get togethers/social events where there is drinking and worldly things going on.
Would you do those things at church? NO!!!! If you are truly saved and love God then you don’t do them at any other time either.
Ephesians 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
If a person aids or encourages another in sinning, he becomes partaker of his sin. Those people who reject the great truths taught by Christ and his apostles, of his divinity, incarnation, and atonement; of justification by faith in him, regeneration by the Spirit of God, and the necessity of perseverance in holiness in order to salvation, are not of God, and not to be received: no such attention should be paid to them as will aid or encourage them in the propagation of their errors. He who assists an evil-doer in any way is responsible to God for the additional evil, as if he had done the same amount of evil himself directly. Therefore he who encourages, goes along with, does not rebuke or refrain from company with an evil-doer becomes a partner in the evil work, and accountable to God in the judgment for having assisted an evil-doer. Those who maintain that continuance in sin will not exclude men from heaven are deceivers. As such they should be treated, and their doctrines be rejected.
Therefore the others commit all evils (as men are accustomed to do in the dark), but they ought not to follow their examples, but rather (as the property of the light is) reprove their darkness, and to walk in such a way (having Christ that true light going before them) as it becomes wise men.
1Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Abstain from all appearance of evil. Not only from evil itself, but from that which seems to be wrong. There are many things which are known to be wrong. They are positively forbidden by the laws of heaven, and the world concurs in the sentiment that they are wicked. But there are also many things about which there may be some reasonable doubt. It is not quite easy to determine in the case what is right or wrong. The subject has not been fully examined, or the question of its morality may be so difficult to settle, that the mind may be nearly or quite balanced in regard to it There are many things which, in themselves, may not appear to us to be positively wrong, but which are so considered by large and respectable portions of the community; and for us to do them would be regarded as inconsistent and improper. There are many things, also, in respect to which there is great variety of sentiment among mankind--where one portion would regard them as proper, and another as improper. There are things, also, where, whatever may be our motive, we may be certain that our conduct will be regarded as improper. A great variety of subjects, such as those pertaining to dress, amusements, the opera, the ball-room, games of chance and hazard, and various practices in the transaction of business, come under this general class; which, though on the supposition that they cannot be proved to be in themselves positively wrong or forbidden, have much the "appearance" of evil, and will be so interpreted by others. The safe and proper rule is to lean always to the side of virtue. In these instances, it may be certain that there will be no sin committed by abstaining; there may be by indulgence. No command of God, or of propriety, will be violated if we decline complying with these customs; but, on the other hand, we may wound the cause of religion by yielding to what possibly is a mere temptation. No one ever does injury or wrong by abstaining from the pleasures of the ball-room, the theatre, or a glass of wine; who can indulge in them, without, in the view of large and respectable portions of the community, doing that which has the "appearance" at least "of evil ?" - Albert Barnes Commentary
Sin not, and avoid even the appearance of it. Do not drive your morality so near the bounds of evil as to lead even weak persons to believe that ye actually touch, taste, or handle it. Let not the form of it appear with or among you, much less the substance. Ye are called to holiness; be ye holy, for God is holy. – Adam Clarke’s Commentary
From the fact that there can be no appearance of evil without the presence of evil at some point. There can no appearance of evil come from that which is purely good; hence to abstain from "every form" of evil covers the whole ground, including the evil appearance, which is also an evil. – Brethren NT Commentary
You cannot be too careful: if there be any manifestation of evil, however slight, shun it at once. Flee from the lion's roar, and you need not dread his teeth. - Charles Spurgeons Devotional Commentary
Biblical assurance of salvation does not flow from a past decision or a prayer, but from the examination of one’s enduring lifestyle in the light of Scripture.
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
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Ordek Avci
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Re: Predestination
Again, Deep Woods, in no way does the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teach that a person is not changed. You will never hear me say that a person has the right to sin because they've "been saved" or anything crazy like that. We are on the same page when we preach against sin and the complacent ways of most of the people claiming to be Christian today. But it is side-stepping the question of how one obtains salvation and whether that person can have assurance that they will keep that salvation once obtained. It seems to me that you have built a straw man out of what you think or merely want Calvinists to be saying and are attacking that straw man. If the straw man is a real man, I will bring the club to beat him with. However, from where I stand, firmly convinced of the Biblical teaching of the perseverance of the saints, and surrounded by scores of men smarter than myself that read the Scriptures the same way, what you are seeing is not reality.
Anyone can be a fisherman in May.
-Ernest Hemingway
-Ernest Hemingway
Re: Predestination
Ordek/Deep: One question.
Can someone who 'chooses' to accept a gift, a gift that they cannot pay for, barter, or earn, but truly a gift beyond any means they have to achieve; take the gift for a while and then make an intentional 'choice' to give it back?
Merry Christmas to all!
skywalker
Can someone who 'chooses' to accept a gift, a gift that they cannot pay for, barter, or earn, but truly a gift beyond any means they have to achieve; take the gift for a while and then make an intentional 'choice' to give it back?
Merry Christmas to all!
skywalker
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Deep Woods
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Re: Predestination
APOSTASY; APOSTATE - a-pos'-ta-si, a-pos'-tat (he apostasia, "a standing away from"): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. (Resource - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
It is only by grace that I am saved, I don’t know all things, I don’t know what may come in the future. I pray that God keep me and not let me fall, but if I for a moment turn to my flesh and do the things that it promotes then I can fall from that grace not because of Him but because of my stupidity just like Lot’s wife and the people that fell in the wilderness and if in that state when He returns I am bound for hell just as they did. (Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.) We can have confidence in God but not in our ability to make it to heaven. We can fall if we choose to follow satan and go back, or hold onto our old sins and things of the world.
We live a dedicated, separated life, not to be saved but because we are saved.
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (KJV)
Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. (Revised Standard Version)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (KJV)
Romans 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Revised Standard Version)
The tendency of faith is to promote humility, and a sense of our dependence on God.
The system of salvation by faith produces that solicitude, and careful guarding and watchfulness, which is necessary to preserve us from apostasy and ruin. – Albert Barnes Commentary
1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Let him that thinketh he standeth - Greek - dokeo histemi. Let him who most confidently standeth-him who has the fullest conviction in his own conscience that his heart is right with God, and that his mind is right in the truth, take heed lest he fall from his faith, and from the state of holiness in which the grace of God has placed him. I have already shown that the verb dokeo, which we render to seem, to think, to suppose, is used by the best Greek writers, not to lessen or weaken the sense, but to render it stronger and more emphatic.
In a state of probation every thing may change; while we are in this life we may stand or fall: our standing in the faith depends on our union with God; and that depends on our watching unto prayer, and continuing to possess that faith that worketh by love. The highest saint under heaven can stand no longer than he depends upon God and continues in the obedience of faith. He that ceases to do so will fall into sin, and get a darkened understanding and a hardened heart: and he may continue in this state till God come to take away his soul. Therefore, let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall; not only partially, but finally. – Adam Clarke’s Commentary
That thinketh he standeth. That supposes himself to be firm in the love of God, and in the knowledge of his truth; that regards himself as secure, and that will be therefore disposed to rely on his own strength.
Take heed lest he fall. Into sin, idolatry, or any other form of iniquity. We learn here,
(1.) that a confidence in our own security is no evidence that we are safe.
(2.) Such a confidence may be one of the strongest evidences that we are in danger. Those are most safe who feel that they are weak and feeble, and who feel their need of Divine aid and strength. They will then rely on the true source of strength; and they will be secure.
(3.) All professed Christians should be admonished. All are in danger of falling into sin, and of dishonouring their profession; and the exhortation cannot be too often or too urgently pressed, that they should take heed lest they fall into sin. The leading and special idea of the apostle here should not be forgotten or disregarded. It is, that Christians in their favoured moments, when they are permitted to approach near to God, and when the joys of salvation fill their hearts, should exercise peculiar caution. – Albert Barnes Commentary
The only security of a Christian under the Divine grace is to be wary and watchful. Burkitt
There is no man so perfect, but that he ought to carry this fear about him; and where his fear points, there must his care and diligence be applied, that is, to himself still: he must watch his passions and affections, lest any of them break out into open enmity against God: his rebel heart must be guarded, lest it quench the holy flame which God has kindled in it; lest it do despite to the Spirit of God, which comes to dwell and inhabit in it. Bp. Sherlock
Him that thinketh he standeth; securely in the favor of God. Lest he fall; into sin, and perish. – Family Bible Notes Commentary
Ver. 12. — Take heed lest he fall. The Corinthians, thinking that they stood,
asserting that they all had knowledge, proud of the insight which led them to
declare that “an idol is nothing in the world,” were not only liable to underrate
the amount of forbearance due to weaker consciences, but
were also in personal danger of falling away. To them, as to the Romans, St. Paul
means to say, “Be not highminded, but fear” - The Pulpit Commentary
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The apostles were most anxious that believers should persevere, and therefore they cautioned them as to the dire results of apostasy. These frequent warnings should make us watchful.
With verse 22 and the Proverb refered to (Proverbs 26:11) Peter illustrates the condition of the backsliding believer. The dog is turned to his own vomit again. As the dog takes into his stomach again that which he loathed before, so does he who forsakes the holy principles of religion and takes up his principles of religion and takes up his once-loathed sinful habits. This part of the proverb may represent the receiving again of the corruption of sin internally, while the latter part may represent the outward uncleanness which sin will produce.
It is better to have never known the way of righteousness, than to turn back from it to the old filthiness: and men that do so, are compared to dogs and swine.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
There is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And were there no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall. – Albert Barnes
2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
The Greek word for fall from as used in the above scripture is….
ekpipto, {ek-pip'-to} ; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one's course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:--be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.
2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
The Greek word for fall as used in the above scripture is….
ptaio, {ptah'-yo} ; to trip, i.e. (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):--fall, offend, stumble.
If there is no chance of losing salvation, then….
Why are there so many scriptures that warn us to be careful against falling?
God’s Word clearly speaks for itself.
It is only by grace that I am saved, I don’t know all things, I don’t know what may come in the future. I pray that God keep me and not let me fall, but if I for a moment turn to my flesh and do the things that it promotes then I can fall from that grace not because of Him but because of my stupidity just like Lot’s wife and the people that fell in the wilderness and if in that state when He returns I am bound for hell just as they did. (Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.) We can have confidence in God but not in our ability to make it to heaven. We can fall if we choose to follow satan and go back, or hold onto our old sins and things of the world.
We live a dedicated, separated life, not to be saved but because we are saved.
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (KJV)
Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. (Revised Standard Version)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (KJV)
Romans 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Revised Standard Version)
The tendency of faith is to promote humility, and a sense of our dependence on God.
The system of salvation by faith produces that solicitude, and careful guarding and watchfulness, which is necessary to preserve us from apostasy and ruin. – Albert Barnes Commentary
1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Let him that thinketh he standeth - Greek - dokeo histemi. Let him who most confidently standeth-him who has the fullest conviction in his own conscience that his heart is right with God, and that his mind is right in the truth, take heed lest he fall from his faith, and from the state of holiness in which the grace of God has placed him. I have already shown that the verb dokeo, which we render to seem, to think, to suppose, is used by the best Greek writers, not to lessen or weaken the sense, but to render it stronger and more emphatic.
In a state of probation every thing may change; while we are in this life we may stand or fall: our standing in the faith depends on our union with God; and that depends on our watching unto prayer, and continuing to possess that faith that worketh by love. The highest saint under heaven can stand no longer than he depends upon God and continues in the obedience of faith. He that ceases to do so will fall into sin, and get a darkened understanding and a hardened heart: and he may continue in this state till God come to take away his soul. Therefore, let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall; not only partially, but finally. – Adam Clarke’s Commentary
That thinketh he standeth. That supposes himself to be firm in the love of God, and in the knowledge of his truth; that regards himself as secure, and that will be therefore disposed to rely on his own strength.
Take heed lest he fall. Into sin, idolatry, or any other form of iniquity. We learn here,
(1.) that a confidence in our own security is no evidence that we are safe.
(2.) Such a confidence may be one of the strongest evidences that we are in danger. Those are most safe who feel that they are weak and feeble, and who feel their need of Divine aid and strength. They will then rely on the true source of strength; and they will be secure.
(3.) All professed Christians should be admonished. All are in danger of falling into sin, and of dishonouring their profession; and the exhortation cannot be too often or too urgently pressed, that they should take heed lest they fall into sin. The leading and special idea of the apostle here should not be forgotten or disregarded. It is, that Christians in their favoured moments, when they are permitted to approach near to God, and when the joys of salvation fill their hearts, should exercise peculiar caution. – Albert Barnes Commentary
The only security of a Christian under the Divine grace is to be wary and watchful. Burkitt
There is no man so perfect, but that he ought to carry this fear about him; and where his fear points, there must his care and diligence be applied, that is, to himself still: he must watch his passions and affections, lest any of them break out into open enmity against God: his rebel heart must be guarded, lest it quench the holy flame which God has kindled in it; lest it do despite to the Spirit of God, which comes to dwell and inhabit in it. Bp. Sherlock
Him that thinketh he standeth; securely in the favor of God. Lest he fall; into sin, and perish. – Family Bible Notes Commentary
Ver. 12. — Take heed lest he fall. The Corinthians, thinking that they stood,
asserting that they all had knowledge, proud of the insight which led them to
declare that “an idol is nothing in the world,” were not only liable to underrate
the amount of forbearance due to weaker consciences, but
were also in personal danger of falling away. To them, as to the Romans, St. Paul
means to say, “Be not highminded, but fear” - The Pulpit Commentary
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The apostles were most anxious that believers should persevere, and therefore they cautioned them as to the dire results of apostasy. These frequent warnings should make us watchful.
With verse 22 and the Proverb refered to (Proverbs 26:11) Peter illustrates the condition of the backsliding believer. The dog is turned to his own vomit again. As the dog takes into his stomach again that which he loathed before, so does he who forsakes the holy principles of religion and takes up his principles of religion and takes up his once-loathed sinful habits. This part of the proverb may represent the receiving again of the corruption of sin internally, while the latter part may represent the outward uncleanness which sin will produce.
It is better to have never known the way of righteousness, than to turn back from it to the old filthiness: and men that do so, are compared to dogs and swine.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
There is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And were there no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall. – Albert Barnes
2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
The Greek word for fall from as used in the above scripture is….
ekpipto, {ek-pip'-to} ; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one's course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:--be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.
2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
The Greek word for fall as used in the above scripture is….
ptaio, {ptah'-yo} ; to trip, i.e. (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):--fall, offend, stumble.
If there is no chance of losing salvation, then….
Why are there so many scriptures that warn us to be careful against falling?
God’s Word clearly speaks for itself.
Biblical assurance of salvation does not flow from a past decision or a prayer, but from the examination of one’s enduring lifestyle in the light of Scripture.
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
1John 2:4, 1John 1:6, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Job 13:16
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Ordek Avci
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Re: Predestination
skywalker wrote:Ordek/Deep: One question.
Can someone who 'chooses' to accept a gift, a gift that they cannot pay for, barter, or earn, but truly a gift beyond any means they have to achieve; take the gift for a while and then make an intentional 'choice' to give it back?
Merry Christmas to all!
skywalker
Salvation is not a gift that comes in a box with a bow on top that you can return within 90 days with a receipt. But I know what you're getting at with your question. Salvation is a new birth, passing from death to life, from darkness into light. It is a transformation. And for all the reasons that I have listed in this thread, it is a transformation that can't be undone. Just as your salvation is brought about by God, so is your perseverance in that salvation.
Deep Woods wrote: then I can fall from that grace not because of Him but because of my stupidity just like Lot’s wife and the people that fell in the wilderness
Again brother, where does the Bible speak of Lot's wife or the wilderness generation as being saved and then lost? I think I commented on this earlier in the thread, though I'd be interested to hear why you think I am interpreting this wrongly.
Deep Woods wrote:With verse 22 and the Proverb refered to (Proverbs 26:11) Peter illustrates the condition of the backsliding believer. The dog is turned to his own vomit again. As the dog takes into his stomach again that which he loathed before, so does he who forsakes the holy principles of religion and takes up his principles of religion and takes up his once-loathed sinful habits. This part of the proverb may represent the receiving again of the corruption of sin internally, while the latter part may represent the outward uncleanness which sin will produce.
I don't think Peter nor Solomon meant this verse to refer to people who believe and then who fall away. It's clear that the dog remains a dog and the sow remains a sow. There is no change in the person. They may go away from their sinful activities for a while, but they're condition never changed. They were not Christians when they walked away from their sin and they were not Christians when they returned.
Again Deep Woods, I am open to any criticism you may have of my hermeneutics. I would love to hear a response to my thoughts on Lot's wife, Hebrews 6, or anything else.
Anyone can be a fisherman in May.
-Ernest Hemingway
-Ernest Hemingway
Re: Predestination
You have both come to the point I was trying to reach.........either way, whether one becomes 'apostate' or was never truly 'saved' the person is still in a 'lost' state. How they 'got there' seems to be the real issue instead of actually leading them to the Savior to be 'saved', 'redeemed'. If the Armenians, Calvinists, whatever Baptist sect there may be would focus as much of their time and energy on reaching the lost as they do 'discussing' OSAS (perseverance of the saints) it would be amazing what could be accomplished. I am not trying to cause division, but on the contrary, bridge the gap........
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas!
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Ordek Avci
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Re: Predestination
skywalker wrote:How they 'got there' seems to be the real issue instead of actually leading them to the Savior to be 'saved', 'redeemed'.
The real issue, to me, in this discussion is who exactly are we preaching.
Are we preaching that there is some line drawn on the spiritual spectrum that, as long as you're "this" obedient, then you can keep your salvation? That you hold your salvation in your hand and decide whether you keep it or not? Are we preaching ourselves?
Or are we preaching that grace is unmerited, and that we will never be good enough? Are we preaching that it is God who holds us in His hands, and nothing can snatch us from Him (even ourselves)? Are we preaching Jesus?
Obviously I am not saying that Deep Woods is not a believer and that anybody who doesn't believe in the perseverance of the saints is believing a false Gospel, but I would say that it's not a pure Gospel.
Anyone can be a fisherman in May.
-Ernest Hemingway
-Ernest Hemingway
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