Predestination

[bohuntr76]

Big O,

Not sure I understand what you are asking because your question seems to contradict itself.

Because we are washed by the "continual cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ," we can't lose our salvation, just sometimes stray from the right path.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE."

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

[BigOrange]

Big O,

Not sure I understand what you are asking because your question seems to contradict itself.

Because we are washed by the "continual cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ," we can't lose our salvation, just sometimes stray from the right path.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE."

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

What is contradictory to me is how someone can be "fallen from grace" but "walking in the light" at the same time.

That continual cleansing is conditonal on the fact of "IF we walk in the light". If one gets off the lighted path and goes back into darkness, that blood is no longer cleansing that individual.

[Ordek Avci]

Judas participated in what is commonly referred to as "the limited commission" as detailed in Matthew 10:1 and the verses following.

Mt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his 12 disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Judas was given the same spiritual powers as the others, including the ability to "cast out demons."

Now it was Christ himself, in a debate with the Pharisees (those who accused the Lord of casting out demons by the power of Satan), who denied that one under the control of Satan would be casting out demons. In that case, he said, the devil would be divided against himself. (Matthew 12:25 and following.)

Again, this is not proof that Judas was a Christian. Jesus was pretty clear in Matthew 7 that there will be those who stand before the throne and say to him, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And he will tell them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." Even people who prophesy, cast out demons, and perform many miracles aren't welcomed into heaven? And why? Because Jesus did not know them. Those are some of the scariest verses in all of Scripture to me.

Jesus is clear that the only people who will see the kingdom of heaven are the ones who hear his words and do them. The good tree bears good fruit. It doesn't bear good fruit in order to earn the right to be a good tree, but because it is a good tree. If Judas had been a true believer, he would have been obedient to the end and would have bore much fruit, like the other apostles.

[Deep Woods]

Judas participated in what is commonly referred to as "the limited commission" as detailed in Matthew 10:1 and the verses following.

Mt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his 12 disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Judas was given the same spiritual powers as the others, including the ability to "cast out demons."

Now it was Christ himself, in a debate with the Pharisees (those who accused the Lord of casting out demons by the power of Satan), who denied that one under the control of Satan would be casting out demons. In that case, he said, the devil would be divided against himself. (Matthew 12:25 and following.)

Again, this is not proof that Judas was a Christian. Jesus was pretty clear in Matthew 7 that there will be those who stand before the throne and say to him, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And he will tell them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." Even people who prophesy, cast out demons, and perform many miracles aren't welcomed into heaven? And why? Because Jesus did not know them. Those are some of the scariest verses in all of Scripture to me.

Jesus is clear that the only people who will see the kingdom of heaven are the ones who hear his words and do them. The good tree bears good fruit. It doesn't bear good fruit in order to earn the right to be a good tree, but because it is a good tree. If Judas had been a true believer, he would have been obedient to the end and would have bore much fruit, like the other apostles.

But you just said in a previous post

Unfortunately, we can't always know who those unrepentant amongst us are. In fact, Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that some of the unrepentant don't even know they are lost.

Jesus is also clear when he says in Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Are we bearing good fruit by partaking in gambling and the sporting events of the "worldly" infidels.



How can a "true" Christian be so bound by T.V., sports, etc, where many of the athletes are
on drugs and steroids. Not to mention scenes of a naked woman on Monday night football.
How is this helping you to get ready for Heaven?
What you are saying to your small children and teenagers, and wife, is, “I choose the
world over God and Heaven.” Romans 12:1,2; 2 Timothy 3:1-4
How can anyone claim to be a Christian, let alone a “true” Christian, when they have to
have these things to amuse them?

Definition of : amuse as by Merriam-Websters 11th Collegiate Dictionary
1 a archaic : to divert the attention of so as to deceive b obsolete : to occupy the attention of : ABSORB c obsolete : DISTRACT, BEWILDER
2 a : to entertain or occupy in a light, playful, or pleasant manner b : to appeal to the sense of humor of .
synonyms: divert, entertain, recreate

1Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

It is in vain that you who frequent these idol festivals, profess the religion of Christ, and passion in the holy spiritual communion with God; you can not have that fellowship with Christ, while you are partakers of the table of demons.

People evidently don’t believe 1Corinthians 10:21…well if they don’t believe 1Corinthians 10:21, I would suggest reading the following scriptures and let them weigh on your mind and be very prayerful about its meaning. You eternal destination depends on your faith/belief in the truth of God’s Word.

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

2Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

What part does a believer have with a stadium full of infidels, a gambling table or any worldly event full of infidels?

I lived in the same state as noted here, but because of faith in Jesus, love for Him, and the strength He provides has helped me forsake these sinful things with no regrets. His yoke is not heavy when you love him. My worldly friends are still worldly, and have chosen not to give their lives to Christ. I must live for God regardless of what others do and no relationship of this world is worth more than my relationship with God..

2Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I pray that we will not be decieved any longer as to the assumption that a person can live in and go along with the sins of the world and society and still enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Lord, help us this day to purify ourselves as You are pure.

[Deep Woods]

How exactly do you define "grace"?

It is not how I define “grace” it is how God’s Word defines it.

Hebrew word for grace is - chen, (khane) ; graciousness, i.e. subjective (kindness, favor) or objective (beauty):--favour, grace(-ious), pleasant, precious, (well-)favoured.

Greek word for grace is – charis, (khar'-ece) graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

Now lets look at Merriam-Webster’s definition
Main Entry: grace
Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit grnati he praises
Date:12th century

1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : APPROVAL, FAVOR (stayed in his good graces_ b archaic : MERCY, PARDON c : a special favor : PRIVILEGE d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE

This says that that by them being under God’s grace they were “acceptable” to Him, “pleasant” to Him, they were “precious” to Him, “well-favoured” by Him, “pleasurable” to Him, “worthy” of His “gift”, “joyful” to Him.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

So you are saying that Noah was not saved either…he just was given a temporal blessing….if Noah had not found “grace” in God’s eyes, and not obeyed God’s commandment to him to build the ark (work), and build it exactly the way God instructed him to, with a certain wood, certain measurements, etc…..and preach for 120 years while he was doing so, he would have perished in sin with the rest of the world, in just the same way the Israelites did in the wilderness for their sin, rebellion, and disobedience…because of their unbelief in God’s commandments, instructions, the obedience of how He instructed them to live. Disobedience is unbelief, disobedience is unbelief….God instructed Christians in 2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, but yet millions believe the false prophets and live in sin and the “world”…this is unbelief, disobedience!

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Here is shown the horrible punishment of those who were saved by the Lord and then have abused the grace of God to follow their own lusts.

[Ordek Avci]

But you just said in a previous post

There is no contradiction in my posts. Some people are able to great things, and even do them in the name of Jesus' name, but that is not used as the criteria by which we should judge someone's faith. Jesus said a good tree bears good fruit. What are the fruits of the Spirit? They are not miracles, casting out demons, nor are they prophecy. The fruits of the Spirit are peace, patience, kindness, etc. Many of these fruits are not always evident to a third party looking at someone's life from the outside. You can discern some things, some times, but in the end you do not know if someone's heart is full of peace or if they are patiently enduring something. Outwardly they may look like they have their life together, but in the end, Jesus will tell them that he did not know them. In the same way, Judas could be numbered with the twelve for years, follow Jesus everywhere he went, and even take part in some amazing ministries, and yet remained unregenerate. He was not saved. He was never saved. If he had been saved, he would have persevered to the end.

Analyzing what you consider a "godly lifestyle" is not part of this discussion. We are discussing God's role and our role in salvation. Again, you are straying from the topic at hand.

Do you have evidence that Lot's wife was saved? Do you have evidence that Judas was saved? Do you have evidence that the fallen angels ever had or will have the chance to repent? Do you have another interpretation of the long list of verses I posted on the first page of this thread that explains away the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints? Is there ever a clear, straight-forward statement in Scripture that says you can be saved one day and not saved the next? Again, I am willing to admit my error if you can plainly show it to me.

I pray that we will not be decieved any longer as to the assumption that a person can live in and go along with the sins of the world and society and still enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And, again, I am in 100% agreement with you here. I want people to live holy lives just as much as you do, brother. If you think I am saying anything different, then please reread my posts. I am not trying to argue for liberty to sin. I am arguing for the complete and graceful sovereignty of God.

[StraightUp]

This has been a good discussion. I think we ought to get together and share a blind this year. Even though we disagree, I'm not scared to be around you guys with loaded weapons!

[Ordek Avci]

This has been a good discussion. I think we ought to get together and share a blind this year. Even though we disagree, I'm not scared to be around you guys with loaded weapons!

Ha! You have obviously never seen me shoot!

You better hope God is completely sovereign if the ducks start pouring in. I get real trigger-happy.

[skywalker]

Ordek,
What are your thoughts on Hebrews 6:4-7?

I have taken several classes working on my Master's in Theological Studies from Liberty University and hit scripture always comes up. I have heard some great dissertations on this, some I agree and some I disagree.

Not trying to start a fight here, just your honest thoughts?

[hencutter]

This has been a good discussion. I think we ought to get together and share a blind this year. Even though we disagree, I'm not scared to be around you guys with loaded weapons!

Agreed! I have enjoyed the discussion.Not the least upset with anyone. Now, I will be away from the computer for a couple of days. Heading down to the mid-Texas coast to hunt with my son and "son in law",James. Yall remind me to tell yall the story of James salvation one day. You will enjoy it, I don't think any of us would disagree on that !l

[Deep Woods]

I am not mad at anybody, BUT the devil. And I am going to stomp on his head every time I get the chance.

[Deep Woods]

Greek word for salvation is soteria {so-tay-ree'-ah}; rescue or safety (physically or morally):--deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

Lot’s wife was delivered/rescued from the destruction to come…but because of her choice..she looked back, fell, to the sin and attractions of the sinful world, was disobedient to God’s command to get out and don’t look back. Because of her disobedience and unbelief in what God had told her to do and not do after her salvation, He was true to His word and He is not repentant therefore Lot’s wife was destroyed because she turned from His truth after her salvation.

We must see that the the scripture that has been noted here in
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

It is not God that fails of His promise to us of salvation, it is us that fail Him, it is the human that sins, the human rebels, the human is disobedient…all the while the saving grace of God is still there. It is us that “looks back” to or continues in the sins of society and our past and by this disobedience is unbelief. Therefore you and the choices that you make when tempted by the devil will be on you as God’s wrath or God’s favor….be sure of the choices you make.

Rev. Charles Finney explains it very well…”God does all that he wisely can, and challenges you to show what more he could do that he has not done. If you go to hell, you must go stained with your own blood. God is clear, angels are clear. To your own master your stand or fall; mercy waits; the Spirit strives; Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Do not, then, pervert this doctrine, and make it an occasion of stumbling till you are in the depth of hell.”

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

We can understand that those he speaks of here, they had once stood by faith; they gave place to unbelief, disobedience, sin, and fell: you stand now by faith; but it is as possible for you to be disobedient as it was for them, and consequently you may fall under the Divine displeasure, as they have done; be not high-minded, but fear; watch over yourselves with godly jealousy.

Be not highminded, Do not vaunt, {vaunt means : BRAG: to call attention to pridefully and often boastfully} yourself over them, because of your present condition: (….how many say “ I am saved and it can’t be undone”)…the Word says "but fear,"….lest your case should hereafter be no better than that of the rejected Jews. The best preservative from falling is humility and holy fear. If we stand in the day of trial, it is the fear of falling which must enable us to stand. Let us take heed we fall not, by thinking it is impossible to fall.

What if Jesus had fell to the devils temptation and sinned?
What if Jesus had looked back?
What if Jesus had said “Oh,..it’s alright to do this or that.”?
What if Jesus had said “ My Father is God..I can do this sin or that sin and He will forgive me”?

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Christian means “Christ like”…strive for it.

It is easy to excuse yourself to hell, but you cannot excuse yourself to Heaven. D.L. Moody

“Some are all for living “on” Christ, but are not so anxious to live “for” Christ.” – Rev. Charles H. Spurgeon


If we profess to be of God’s elect, saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ….then we should act like it and stop bringing shame to GOD by our continuance in sin and disobedience to HIS word!

[rustypjr]

Can someone elaborate on Hebrews 6:4-7?

I believe theses verses were written to speak of the need of the believer to perservere in the Christian faith. The writer of Hebrews admonishes the readers not to go back to Old Testament sacrificial system because Jesus is superior in everyway. By there actions they were re crucifiying Christ. And If they forsake Christ after professed Him, they were never actually saved to begin with.

This is jsut my take on these verses in the Context of Hebrews.

On the topic of predestination I believe that yes we are predestined. But not as we think of it. We still have the free will to decide or not but God already knows who will and who will not. John 14:3 says he goes ahead to prepare a place for me. So he already knows I am coming. Why would he prepare something for me if he doesnt alreay know. don't know if that makes since or not but my .02

[skywalker]

How can one be 'enlightened' and 'tasted the heavenly gift' and be 'partakers of the Holy Ghost' and not be saved? Doesn't the Holy Ghost indwell when someone becomes a Christian?

Thoughts?

[Ordek Avci]

I haven't abandoned this topic and will give my two cents on Hebrews soon, but I'm working like a dog, on top of going to grad school full time, so it may be next week before I get a chance.

Y'all have a good weekend.