Predestination

[StraightUp]

Ok, I'll bite. Fear that you have is- "If I'm not good enough God will cast me out". Fear that is refered to in the verses you listed is reverence for God, which is to be embraced.

You are strapping yourself with a big burden that God never intended you to bear. The teaching of your denomination insists others get under there too.

Recently, I was flying in a jet. I thought about how impossible it would be to be outside trying to hold on to that wing at 350knots. I said to myself, "I'm glad this plane is holding me and I don't have to be outside holding to it".

I don't doubt your salvation for one moment. I do think you have a very different understanding of the Grace of Jesus Christ than I have.

[hencutter]

Thanks for all the qoutes from Scripture. You might add 2 Corinthians 5.17 in there too.

However, your Gospel is a Gospel of works. I agree that if a man says he loves God and doesn't keep His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. I also know in my heart and from Scripture I am secure in Christ. I don't have to live in fear like you. I don't hold God, He holds me and therein is my security.

But, didn't Paul teach us to "work out our own salvation-with fear and trembling"?
And doesn't Provebs teach us that "Fear of The Lord is the begining of wisdom"?
I know folks who are ardent O.S.A.S. who still fear the wrath of God.Of, course I know quite a few who don't fear God,too. Not wise at all.

[StraightUp]

Thanks for all the qoutes from Scripture. You might add 2 Corinthians 5.17 in there too.

However, your Gospel is a Gospel of works. I agree that if a man says he loves God and doesn't keep His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. I also know in my heart and from Scripture I am secure in Christ. I don't have to live in fear like you. I don't hold God, He holds me and therein is my security.

But, didn't Paul teach us to "work out our own salvation-with fear and trembling"?
And doesn't Provebs teach us that "Fear of The Lord is the begining of wisdom"?
I know folks who are ardent O.S.A.S. who still fear the wrath of God.Of, course I know quite a few who don't fear God,too. Not wise at all.

I see what you are saying, but you don't see what I'm saying.

Yes, I fear the chastisement of God. Yes, God's correction is a serious thing for the disobedient believer. But we aren't talking about that. The discussion is about God deciding that I'm too disappointing to Him and then revoking my salvation or the grace He once gave me. I am saying that God gave His grace based on my response to His offer. I responded in FAITH and He extended grace. I didn't earn it or work for it. Therefore, I can't work to keep it.

He holds me and I am humbled by that fact. I am so humbled I serve Him with gladness, not fear that He may arbitrarily revoke grace.

To hold to Him(thru fearful rule-keeping) is a gospel of works salvation.

God is my Father, not a slave driver.

[skywalker]

Can someone elaborate on Hebrews 6:4-7?

[Deep Woods]

Can someone elaborate on Hebrews 6:4-7?

Exactly.....WHY does the apostle "warn" of falling from grace in Hebrews 6:1-7, if there is eternal security?
He warns that if they fall away from grace, they could not again be renewed. There is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And if there were no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly stands, take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[StraightUp]

These are among the most debated verses in Scripture. It appears to advocate falling from grace or loosing your salvation like we are talking about here. However, I don't see it that way and refuse to build such a doctrine on the basis of one passage. Especially when that passage is not unanimously interpreted the same by bible scholars- i.e., it's debatable.

This verse really disproves the position of those who propose that man can lose his salvation and come back again. It says that if you think you can get saved, lose it and regain it several times over a lifetime, you are fooling yourself. So, conservative/sound scholars say it presents the idea of loosing grace as hypothetical in order to prove a point about the certainty of God's work of grace in our lives.

Furthermore the writer of Hebrews had no thought of actual forfeiture of salvation. Notice his words in Heb.6.19 and 10.14. Also note he had no doubts as to the salvation of the recipients of his letter--Heb. 6.9.

Sorry, but the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. Too many other passages support the security of the beleiver. Our real debate here should be on the sincerety of the masses who profess Christ, yet never seem to take on His Character.

[Ordek Avci]

Have you ever read about Judas Iscariot. His awful end is a solemn warning against avarice, hypocrisy, and all unfaithfulness.

Where is Judas ever said to be a Christian, in faith, and then fallen out of faith? It seems to me that the Apostle John is pretty clear that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19. Earlier in the same chapter John explains that not as a prerequisite for belief in Jesus, but instead as proof of a belief in Jesus, "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments." - 1 John 2:3. Therefore, Jesus says, when speaking to the apostles, "But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:64,65, and later in John 6:70, in response to Peter, "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.'” John is clear that if Judas had been saved, he would not have "gone out from them." And Jesus is pretty clear that Judas did not believe, even early on in Jesus' ministry. He was never a believer. He was never saved.

The far greater part of that very people whom he had once saved.

1 Corinthians 10 tells us that, as you say, God was not pleased with most of the Israelites that he brought up out of Egypt. I do not disagree with that. They died in the desert because of sin. But, again, where does the Bible speak of them in a positive light? Where are they said to have been given eternal salvation prior to their fall? Their being brought up out of Egypt is not a sign of eternal salvation being given to them. It is a temporal, physical blessing, nothing more. You would never go to a man who just walked out of a burning building and say to him, "Look how God just gave you eternal life by bringing you out of this building! Be careful not to lose your salvation!" No, nobody talks like that. Instead, just as the Old Testament does time and again, you would tell that man, "Look how God has saved you from death! He has given you a second chance to repent and turn to him!"

And in the Old Testament, God chose to work through an ethnic people group, Israel. This is often misunderstood, which it seems you have, to mean that all of Israel was therefore saved simply on the basis of them being Israelites. I believe this is not what the Bible teaches at all, and the verse you cited from Jude is a perfect and clear example of this. That verse is written to a group of believers into which false teachers had come. You can see that in the preceding verse (4) where Jude says that certain ungodly people have crept into their assembly. He parallels the fate of those unbelievers who have crept into the church with the fate of those unbelievers who perished in the wilderness. He is clearly stating that not all those who came up out of Egypt believed in Yahweh. This is not a statement of anyone falling from a state of grace, but merely an acknowledgment that most of them were not in a "state of grace" to begin with. He is telling them to take heart, that one day God will judge the ungodly and justice will be served. Jesus very clearly teaches this same idea in Matthew 13 with a parable, saying, "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, 'Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” As you have said, we would be very foolish to believe that every single person filling the pews of our churches is actually a Christian. Unfortunately, we can't always know who those unrepentant amongst us are. In fact, Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that some of the unrepentant don't even know they are lost.

this clearly shows they were in a state of grace

How exactly do you define "grace"? If you mean that they were in God's favor and fell from that, then I agree. But you can not make the parallel between sinless angels and sinful humans. We are not in God's favor anymore. The only people you can compare angels to would be pre-fall Adam and Christ. If you and I had never sinned, then we would be like the angels who get to stay in heaven based on their own merits, on their own sinlessness. But we are sinners. Therefore we have already fallen from grace. That's Genesis 3. Since that has already happened, we are in need of grace, meaning we need, "unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification," which is how Webster defines grace. Webster, though again not worried with theology, amazingly hits the nail on the head when he said that grace is: 1. unmerited and 2. given (to) humans. Grace is not something we earn, it's something we are given (Eph. 2:8,9). And it is not something that is offered to angels. Once the angels sinned, they were condemned. No second chances. No atoning death for them. No chance for repentance. Jesus did not die for angels, which I addressed in an earlier post.

And you can claim eternal security,…….humans today are no better than those of Israel, or the fallen angels. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are much better than Israel and not even in the same league with the fallen angels.

Jeremiah 31 tells us, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

We have a new and better covenant. Before Jesus, the Jews had the law. The law condemned. It was not life giving. They could only know God from a distance. Their sins had only been passed over, not forgiven. Today we have Jesus. Grace forgives. Jesus came that we may have life and have it to the full. Jesus sent his Spirit to dwell in us. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. That's why Jesus spoke of Abraham rejoicing at seeing his day. That's why Paul said that before Jesus, the gospel was a mystery. We have many advantages that Israel did not.

And the fallen angels have no chance! You yourself have quoted the scriptures that tell of how God has not given the angels a chance to repent. The Gospel is something that the angels long to look into. It is not for them, it is for us. We are the ones he came to redeem. We are the only ones that carry the image of God. And one day, we humans that have believed in Jesus will actually sit in judgment of the angels. I believe all those facts do, actually, give us many more advantages.

Again I ask, what am I missing here? Where do you see the fallen angels as having a chance to repent? Where do you see universal salvation for all of Israel? Where do you see Lot's wife being called righteous? I am open to being corrected if I am misreading these texts. But I need you to show me, convincingly, where I am interpreting these things poorly. None of these texts seem to discredit the idea that all those that genuinely believe will be kept in faith and obedience by the power of God himself.

[hencutter]

These are among the most debated verses in Scripture. It appears to advocate falling from grace or loosing your salvation like we are talking about here. However, I don't see it that way and refuse to build such a doctrine on the basis of one passage. Especially when that passage is not unanimously interpreted the same by bible scholars- i.e., it's debatable.

This verse really disproves the position of those who propose that man can lose his salvation and come back again. It says that if you think you can get saved, lose it and regain it several times over a lifetime, you are fooling yourself. So, conservative/sound scholars say it presents the idea of loosing grace as hypothetical in order to prove a point about the certainty of God's work of grace in our lives.

Furthermore the writer of Hebrews had no thought of actual forfeiture of salvation. Notice his words in Heb.6.19 and 10.14. Also note he had no doubts as to the salvation of the recipients of his letter--Heb. 6.9.

Sorry, but the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. Too many other passages support the security of the beleiver. Our real debate here should be on the sincerety of the masses who profess Christ, yet never seem to take on His Character.

Conservative,sound scholars? Come on, that sounds more like the Televangelists who want all of us to "feel good" about ourselves,so that we will send them more money ! More like likely Calvinist scholars would be a better description. I wonder if Servantus thought Calvin "conservative and sound" when he had him executed?
You are correct, the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible, and He was sure to tell us that " The Holy Ghost will teach you all things". He never stated that scholars , denominations and universities would.

[StraightUp]

These are among the most debated verses in Scripture. It appears to advocate falling from grace or loosing your salvation like we are talking about here. However, I don't see it that way and refuse to build such a doctrine on the basis of one passage. Especially when that passage is not unanimously interpreted the same by bible scholars- i.e., it's debatable.

This verse really disproves the position of those who propose that man can lose his salvation and come back again. It says that if you think you can get saved, lose it and regain it several times over a lifetime, you are fooling yourself. So, conservative/sound scholars say it presents the idea of loosing grace as hypothetical in order to prove a point about the certainty of God's work of grace in our lives.

Furthermore the writer of Hebrews had no thought of actual forfeiture of salvation. Notice his words in Heb.6.19 and 10.14. Also note he had no doubts as to the salvation of the recipients of his letter--Heb. 6.9.

Sorry, but the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. Too many other passages support the security of the beleiver. Our real debate here should be on the sincerety of the masses who profess Christ, yet never seem to take on His Character.

Conservative,sound scholars? Come on, that sounds more like the Televangelists who want all of us to "feel good" about ourselves,so that we will send them more money ! More like likely Calvinist scholars would be a better description. I wonder if Servantus thought Calvin "conservative and sound" when he had him executed?
You are correct, the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible, and He was sure to tell us that " The Holy Ghost will teach you all things". He never stated that scholars , denominations and universities would.

It's always dangerous to start a discussion like this on the internet. It usually digresses into a name calling event. If we were all sitting around a table talking we would treat each other differently...

One more time, I'm not talking about a faith with no responsibility. I AM SAYING that grace does make me feel good!! The idea that God's love included me and procures for me eternal life is pretty neat. Therefore I do maintain holiness, faithfulness to his church and all the other commands of Scripture. Some do it because they feel that grace can be recalled. I do it out of gratitude.

I have two kids that are young adults now. I want them to live a certain way because they know it pleases me, not because they are afraid I'll write them out of the will.

So in my understanding of grace I live for Jesus out of gratitude to Him. Others appear to live for Him out of fear. I'm serving BECAUSE I'm saved. Others serve to STAY saved.

Forgive me, but I think my understanding of grace is more accurate.

[the doctor]

So in my understanding of grace I live for Jesus out of gratitude to Him. Others appear to live for Him out of fear. I'm serving BECAUSE I'm saved. Others serve to STAY saved.

Forgive me, but I think my understanding of grace is more accurate.

no need to ask forgiveness StrightUp, you're right on target...gratitude not guilt or fear

both live for and serve Christ but the motives are different and that makes all the difference...people try to "control" God with their works or deeds and you simply cant

I ask one question: what do you think is the look on Gods face when He looks at the life He gave you? (might put this in its own topic)

the doc

[bohuntr76]

Can someone elaborate on Hebrews 6:4-7?

Exactly.....WHY does the apostle "warn" of falling from grace in Hebrews 6:1-7, if there is eternal security?
He warns that if they fall away from grace, they could not again be renewed. There is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And if there were no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly stands, take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In Galations 5 Paul is talking about how we relate to God. He does not mean we will fall from salvation, but from a way of relating to God by GRACE (there's nothing I can do to make up for my sins) to that of WORKS (I must keep some rules in order to still be considered for heaven.) When he says that a believer has "fallen from grace," he is saying that the believer has fallen from the more perfect way of seeking God's will in his life to the more undesirable or unreachable way. This does not mean someone had salvation and lost it. Paul is addressing the believer's walk not his eternal salvation in this passage.

But, like StraightUp said, these are some of the most debated scriptures in the Bible and will long be debated after you and I are gone.

[hencutter]

StraightUp, if it seems that this has desended into name calling,etc., I apoligize, i certainly felt like everything that we were all saying could have stated around a coffee table. It all appeared to still be civil to me. Again, not my intent to appear to go to name-calling,etc. As I stated earlier in our discussion on this thread,this forum usually discusses topics without all of that.

[StraightUp]

StraightUp, if it seems that this has desended into name calling,etc., I apoligize, i certainly felt like everything that we were all saying could have stated around a coffee table. It all appeared to still be civil to me. Again, not my intent to appear to go to name-calling,etc. As I stated earlier in our discussion on this thread,this forum usually discusses topics without all of that.

Thanks hencutter. I'm okay with the discussion. I was just saying because we can't see and hear each other it is easy to assume something about the other guy. You know, while I feel passionate on this doctrinal subject, I don't see those who disagree as the enemy. We're on the same team in a sense; you and I as christians have an enemy and it's not each other!

[BigOrange]

Can someone elaborate on Hebrews 6:4-7?

Exactly.....WHY does the apostle "warn" of falling from grace in Hebrews 6:1-7, if there is eternal security?
He warns that if they fall away from grace, they could not again be renewed. There is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And if there were no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly stands, take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In Galations 5 Paul is talking about how we relate to God. He does not mean we will fall from salvation, but from a way of relating to God by GRACE (there's nothing I can do to make up for my sins) to that of WORKS (I must keep some rules in order to still be considered for heaven.) When he says that a believer has "fallen from grace," he is saying that the believer has fallen from the more perfect way of seeking God's will in his life to the more undesirable or unreachable way. This does not mean someone had salvation and lost it. Paul is addressing the believer's walk not his eternal salvation in this passage.

If Paul is addressing a believer's walk, and that believer has "fallen from grace", how can he still be "walking in the light" and thus be saved by the continual cleansing from the blood of Jesus Christ?

John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[BigOrange]

Have you ever read about Judas Iscariot. His awful end is a solemn warning against avarice, hypocrisy, and all unfaithfulness.

Where is Judas ever said to be a Christian, in faith, and then fallen out of faith?

Judas participated in what is commonly referred to as "the limited commission" as detailed in Matthew 10:1 and the verses following.

Mt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his 12 disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Judas was given the same spiritual powers as the others, including the ability to "cast out demons."

Now it was Christ himself, in a debate with the Pharisees (those who accused the Lord of casting out demons by the power of Satan), who denied that one under the control of Satan would be casting out demons. In that case, he said, the devil would be divided against himself. (Matthew 12:25 and following.)