Predestination

[Deep Woods]

And Deep Woods, are you arguing with me or against me? Because honestly, nothing in that last post goes against either predestination or the perseverance of the saints, though I'm not exactly sure how you see it pertaining to this discussion.

I Do NOT believe in the false doctrine of "once saved always saved", OSAS.
What about Lot's wife.....Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
There are in Lot's story (Genesis 19) two very notable memorials of God's judgment. The Lake of Sodom, and Lot's wife's pillar. The one, the punishment of resolute sin; the other, of faint virtue. For the Sodomites are an example of impenitent willful sinners; and Lot's wife, of unpersevering and relapsing righteous persons. So that there are two sorts of men, to whom these particulars are fitted. To those in a state of sin, the Lake of Sodom: to those in a state of grace, Lot's wife's pillar. To the first in a state of sin, Moses proposeth "the vine of Sodom," and the grapes of Gomorrah, which, if you but touch them, turn to ashes. To the others, in a state of grace, Christ proposeth the pillar of salt: "Remember Lot's wife."
Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt; as a monument of the wrath of God against her for breaking his command. One act of wilful disobedience to God may prove the occasion of immediate and irretrievable ruin.

1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

In a state of probation every thing may change; while we are in this life we may stand or fall: our standing in the faith depends on our union with God; and that depends on our watching unto prayer, and continuing to possess that faith that worketh by love. The highest saint under heaven can stand no longer than he depends upon God and continues in the obedience of faith. He that ceases to do so will fall into sin, and get a darkened understanding and a hardened heart: and he may continue in this state till God come to take away his soul. Therefore, let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall; not only partially, but finally.Adam Clarke's Commentary on 1Corinthians 10:12

It is not just "believing" it is doing His commandments, living by His Word, and denying yourself and being separate from the "world" and continuing in these things.


Jesus Christ did not come to earth, live a perfect, sinless life, go through a mockery of a trial, then die a humiliating, tortuous death, go back to Heaven and pray the Father to pour out the powerful, Holy Spirit on the believers so that we could live a cheap, sloppy, undisciplined, immoral, even perverted life and still spend eternity in Heaven.

The great business of Jesus Christ coming to this earth 2,000 years ago, which is clearly stated in Matthew 1:21 has never changed:
...for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21 (not in their sin)

The practical effect of regeneration (being saved) is that the person born of God will demonstrate that fact by his hatred of sin (1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. See also 1John 5:18.), righteous deeds (1John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him., 1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.).

Sanctification – The Nature of Sanctification.

1. Separation. “Holy” is a word descriptive of the Divine nature. Its root meaning is “separation”; therefore holiness represents that in God which makes Him separate from all that is earthlyand human – namely, His absolute moral perfection and Divine majesty.

2. Dedication. Sanctification includes both a separation from and dedication to; it is “the condition believers as they are separated from sin and the world and made partakers of the Divine nature, and consecrated to the fellowship and service of God through the Mediator.”


3. Purification, men dedicated to Him must share His nature. Things devoted to Him must be clean. Cleanliness is a condition of holiness, but not the holiness itself, which is primarily separation and dedication.

4. Consecration, in the sense of living holily and righteously. What is the difference between righteousness and holiness? Righteousness represents the regenerate life as conformed to the Divine law; the children of God live right. (1John 3:6-10) Holiness is the regenerate life as conformed to the Divine nature and dedicated to the Divine service; and this calls for the removal of any defilement which would hinder that service. “But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation.” 1Peter 1:15. So sanctification includes the removal of the spot or defilement which is contrary to the holiness of the Divine nature.

5. Service. The covenant is a state of relationship with God and men in which He is their God and they are His people, which means His worshiping people. New testament believers offer the sacrifice of praise (1Peter 2:5, Hebrews 13:15-16) and dedicate themselves as living sacrifices upon God’s altar. (Romans 12:1)
Thus we see that service is an essential element of sanctification or holiness, because this is the only sense in which men can belong to God, namely as His worshipers doing Him service. Paul expressed this aspect of holiness when he spoke of God, “whose I am, and whom I serve.” Acts 27:23. Sanctification involves possessionby God and service toward God..

All true Christians are separated to God in Jesus Christ; and from this springs the responsibility to live for Him. This separation is to be followed daily, the true believer seeking to become more and more conformed to the image of Christ. The true Christian must follow after holiness (Hebrews 12:14) and perfect his consecration by cleansing himself from all defilement. (2Corinthians 7:1)

The majority of “professing” Christians today love the very things of the “world” (the fashions, activities, (sports, nascar), music, television, movies, heathen lifestyles/practices, coveteousness, etc.) that nailed Jesus Christ, the One they claim to so dearly love and worship, to the cross at Calvary.

If God loved you as much as you love Him, where would you be?

[JoHo]

Alright, rapid fire questions...

Look at John 3:16-"whosoever."

Again, "whosoever" does not prove anything. Whether you're Calvinist or Arminian, if you believe the Bible, then you believe that you must believe in Jesus to be saved. Whosoever does so, is saved. Calvinists believe that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. Arminians believe that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. What difference do you see this verse making?

Also, why would we have the Great Commission to go and tell and make disciples? If He chose His people, then why would He command us to share.

If God promised Noah that he would save him and his family, should he have built the ark? If God promised Abraham that he would make him into a great nation, should Abraham continue to have sex with Sarah? If God promised Israel the land of Canaan, should Israel have continued battling the people there? I think you see the pattern here.

Yes, He knows who is going to accept, because He is God and He knows everything.

Does God know everything before it happens? If God knows something, then can it happen any other way? If God knows something before it happens, and it can't be any other way once he knows it, then wouldn't it be safe to say that things are predetermined?

But we can fall out of His will.

How do you define will? What do you have to do in order to get outside of what God's "will" is?

And Deep Woods, are you arguing with me or against me? Because honestly, nothing in that last post goes against either predestination or the perseverance of the saints, though I'm not exactly sure how you see it pertaining to this discussion.

(1) I may not really understand your question but whosoever means anybody and everybody to me. God's desire is for everyone to accept Christ but He knows, because He is God, not everybody will. Its our choice to accept Christ or not. Either you do or you don't.

(2) As far as God telling Noah to built the ark: my thoughts on that is it boils down to obedience. If God told Noah to built the ark and he didn't, I don't think Noah's family would have made it. But Noah was obedient and his family survived.

(3) IMO predetermined is not a good choice of words for God knowing everything. I go back to number (1) above. He doesn't choose who is and who isn't, he knows who will and who won't and that is not predestination.

(4) When I used the word "will", I could have used sin. We, even as Christians, sin. Our desire as a believer should not to sin but we do. If someone gets "saved" and sees Jesus as a get out of hell ticket and thats all, that person did not truly accept Christ! I believe when someone accepts Christ, their priorities and desires should change toward a life that brings glory to God.

I would like to say that there are a couple topics that can really cause people to lose their cool and one of those topics is religion. I appreciate this thread being one of civil discussion and opinion sharing.

[StraightUp]

Reminds me of my college/seminary days. Arguements and debates everyday.

This arguement never gets settled. After a few years, i begin to realize it is a waste of energy. Does it really need to be debated? Could it be that honest "seekers" are turned off by our theological jausting.

Why ask questions that cannot be answered? --Can God make a rock so big He can't pick it up?

I think I'll just live and preach the Gospel.

[hencutter]

JoHo, i agree with your comment towards the end of your post.Most of the discussions here are civil, we may disagree,but usually with mutual respect. I appreciate the believers on this forum for being able to do that.

StraightUp, you are correct that theological jousting as you call it, can run off seekers. But those of us who have studied the word for a while do need someplace to thresh out our beliefs ,and why we may believe that way.What if the new seeker was being led astray by some cult,etc. ? On this forum, our beliefs are usually disscussed without animosity.And, most of us are devoted Christians,but not all of us went to seminary, so we we have to find another outlet.

[Ordek Avci]

Let me start out by saying that I don't expect anyone to change their mind based on something they read on the internet. And I also believe that as long as you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was killed on the cross, dead, buried, raised on the third day, and ascended to heaven to take his seat at the right hand of the father, then you will be saved.

Now, with that said...

Lot's wife, of unpersevering and relapsing righteous persons.

Where is Lot's wife ever considered a righteous person? Nowhere is her spiritual condition spoken of in a positive manner. In fact, the only place I know of in all of Scripture that does actually speak to her spiritual condition is the Luke 17 passage that you referenced. The passage is talking about how when Jesus returns in judgment, the righteous will be caught up into heaven and the unrighteous will be left to suffer God's wrath. There are only two groups mentioned by Jesus there, the Christians and the non-Christians. Lot's wife is used as an example of how there will be two people side by side, one will be saved and the other will not. Nowhere is Lot's wife called a righteous person. If anything, it seems that Jesus is lumping her in with the unrighteous.

Again, I think there is ample and clear evidence that Scripture teaches that God will keep his people until the end. The first page of this thread has a nice list of verses that are very explicit. There are others that I could point to, but even with the few I listed I think it's easy to see what the Bible is saying to us.

And everything else you said (once you get past the ACC quote) I whole-heartedly agree with. The idea of the perseverance of the saints does not mean that as long as you claim to have faith and get baptized and show up on Sundays that you can then sin however you want and enjoy God's favor. Instead, the perseverance of the saints means that God himself is working in you to hold your faith together and to keep you in obedience so that you will live a holy life and grow into the likeness of his Son.

And JoHo,

1. I agree 100% with what you said. And that's my point. Just quoting John 3:16 doesn't tilt the argument one way or the other. Both sides of this issue read that verse exactly the same. Every Arminian and every Calvinist I have ever known agree that the Gospel is to be preached to every single person and that every single person has the opportunity to believe it or reject it. And, every Arminian and every Calvinist I have ever known agree that not every one will, and therefore, not every will enjoy life to the full here or in the age to come.

2. Again, I agree 100%, and that was the point I was making. God has a chosen people out there that will respond to the Gospel when it is presented to them. But, they have to believe the Gospel to be saved, and they have to hear the Gospel preached in order to believe in it. Just as God promised salvation to Noah, offspring to Abraham, and land to Israel, yet commanded and fully expected them to obtain the promises through a specific means (building the ark, having children through Sarah, conquering the Canaanites through war), so also does God command us to obtain the promise of the elect through a specific means, preaching the Gospel to everyone. That's Paul's argument in Romans 10 exactly.

3. I think predetermined, or predestined, is exactly the right word for a number of reasons. First of all, because that is exactly the language God himself uses, speaking through Paul, in Ephesians 1. Ephesians 1:4 explicitly says that God chose us before the foundation of the world. 1:5 says he predestined us for adoption. Also, Revelation 13:8 speaks of the Lamb's Book of Life which was written before the foundation of the world. Romans 9:10-12 is also pretty astonishingly explicit that God chose between twins before they were born based on nothing more than God's own will.

Romans 9:10-12 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

There are other texts, but I am running out of time this afternoon.

Also, I would throw out there the question that if God knows something, and I assume you believe that God cannot be wrong, then how could it ever be otherwise? Once God knows something, then it must happen that way. So if you believe God can know the future, which I assume you do, then the future is set, or predestined. Isaiah 45 and 48 both speak to God not only knowing the future, but also being active in bringing it to pass. This is how God separates himself from the idols.

4. Again, I totally agree, 100%, with what you said about someone truly being saved. If anything, I would make the statement even stronger and say that the Bible teaches that not only "when someone accepts Christ, their priorities and desires should change toward a life that brings glory to God," but that they will change. That is a promise we are given and how we are to know the non-Christians from the Christians.

I guess my question about "God's will" should have been more fully explained. If Psalm 135:6 (and other texts similar to it) is true, and "Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps," then how does anything get outside of God's will, if what you mean by "will" is "what God wants to happen"?

This arguement never gets settled. After a few years, i begin to realize it is a waste of energy. Does it really need to be debated? Could it be that honest "seekers" are turned off by our theological jausting.

Why ask questions that cannot be answered?

I think it's great to dig deep into the Scriptures. It's driven me back to the word several times over the last few days to look at things like Lot's wife, Isaiah 49, and Romans 10. I hope the debate never stops (until everybody sees it my way, of course). And I don't think it's a question that can't be answered. I think more times than not, we just don't like the answers we're given.

And it could be that people are turned off by it, but I can honestly say that I've never met someone who was. And honestly, even if they were turned off by a group of people discussing the word of God seriously and respectfully, then there is probably some other offense that is turning them off. Being told you're a sinner and in need of grace just doesn't sit well with most people.

And, finally, I echo the sentiment that it's nice that we can have differing views on something like this and yet still stand together at the foot of the cross as brothers.

[Deep Woods]

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Now "if God spared not the angels that sinned".....The OSAS people must think that they are better than the angels.....????????????
If we sin and do not sincerely repent of and forsake our sins, we will be cast down to hell just like the angels that sinned.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

How strange it is that people professing Christianity can suppose that with a worldly spirit, worldly companions, and their lives governed by worldly maxims, they can be in the favour of God, or ever get to the kingdom of heaven! When the world gets into the Church, the Church becomes a painted sepulchre; its spiritual vitality being extinct.
Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world. "Whoever" he may be, whether in the church or out of it. The fact of being a member of the church makes no difference in this respect, for it is as easy to be a friend of the world in the church as out of it. The phrase "whosoever will" implies purpose, intention, design. It supposes that the heart is set on it; or that there is a deliberate purpose to seek the friendship of the world. It refers to that strong desire which often exists, even among professing Christians, to secure the friendship of the world; to copy its fashions and vanities; to enjoy its pleasures; and to share its pastimes and its friendships.

There are many in the church who, so far as human judgment can go, are characteristically lovers of the world. This is shown

(a) by their conformity to it in all in which the world is distinguished from the church as such;

(b) in their seeking the friendship of the world, or their finding their friends there rather than among Christians;

(c) in preferring the amusements of the world to the scenes where spiritually-minded Christians find their chief happiness;

(d) in pursuing the same pleasures that the people of the world do, with the same expense, the same extravagance, the same luxury;

(e) in making their worldly interests the great object of living, and everything else subordinate to that. This spirit exists in all cases where no worldly interest is sacrificed for religion; where everything that religion peculiarly requires is sacrificed for the world. If this be so, then there are many professing Christians who are the "enemies of God." They have never known what is true friendship for him, and by their lives they show that they can be ranked only among his foes. It becomes every professing Christian, therefore, to examine himself with the deepest earnestness to determine whether he is characteristically a friend of the world or of God; whether he is living for this life only, or is animated by the high and pure principles of those who are the friends of God. The great Searcher of hearts cannot be deceived, and soon our appropriate place will be assigned us, and our final Judge will determine to which class of the two great divisions of the human family we belong--to those who are the friends of the world, or to those who are the friends of God. Albert Barnes Commentary

Know ye not that the friendship or love of the world-The desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life, or courting the favour of worldly men, is enmity against God?

Whosoever desireth to be a friend of the world-Whosoever seeks either the happiness or favour of it, does thereby constitute himself an enemy of God; and can he expect to obtain anything of him? - John Wesley

1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world; that is, all that is in esteem and vogue with the men of the world, is either the lust of the flesh, that is all sensual delights and enjoyments, which occasion intemperance: or the lust of the eye, the desire of gold, silver, stately houses, rich gardens, which tend to gratify the eye: and the pride of life, or the desires of honours and dignities, high titles, and places of advancement, which tend to gratify our pride, all these are not of the Father; that is, they are not desires excited by him, nor are they pleasing to him, but are the desires of the men of the world, and proceed from that corruption which is in them.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; {to retain: or, to acknowledge} {a reprobate...: or, a mind void of judgment or, an unapproving mind}
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. {have...: or, consent with}

Greek for unrighteousness, is adikia (ad-ee-kee'-ah); -definition - (legal) injustice (properly, the quality, by implication, the act); morally, wrongfulness (of character, life or act):--iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.

Greek for fornication, is porneia, (por-ni'-ah); -definition - harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

Greek for wickedness, is poneria, (pon-ay-ree'-ah); -definition - depravity, i.e. (specially), malice; plural (concretely) plots, sins:--iniquity, wickedness.

Greek for covetousness, is pleonexia, (pleh-on-ex-ee'-ah) ; avarice, i.e. (by implication) fraudulency, extortion:--covetous(-ness) practices, greediness.

Greek for maliciousness, is kakia, (kak-ee'-ah); badness, i.e. (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble:--evil, malice(-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.

Greek for envy, is phthonos, (fthon'-os); ill-will (as detraction), i.e. jealousy (spite):--envy.

Greek for debate, is eris, (er'-is); a quarrel, i.e. (by implication) wrangling:--contention, debate, strife, variance.

Greek for deceit, is dolos, (dol'-os); a trick (bait), i.e. (figuratively) wile:--craft, deceit, guile, subtilty.

Greek for malignity, is kakoetheia, (kak-o-ay'-thi-ah); bad character, i.e. (specially) mischievousness:--malignity.

Need we go on any further in these in depth definitions of these words? This clearly shows that you can lose your salvation and be cast into hell for your sin. We can profess to know Jesus all we want but if we do not obey His commandments “continually” and “forever” and grow in our walk of faith (the word walk used here intimates “action”), repent of our sins and “go and sin no more” we are not just “backslid” we are on our way to the eternal fires of hell, just like the angels that sinned.

Greek for repent[/b] is metanoeo, (met-an-o-eh'-o); - defintion - to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent [/b]

REPENT as defined by Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary
intransitive verb
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive verb
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

PENITENT as defined by Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary
from present participle of paenitre to cause regret, feel regret

: feeling or expressing humble or regretful pain or sorrow for sins or offenses : REPENTANT



1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Ye compass sea and land. You take every means--spare no pains to gain proselytes.
(This describes most of the churches today….just do what ever to get them in.)

Twofold more the child of hell. The Pharisees gained them either to swell their numbers, or to make gain by extorting their money under various pretences; and when they had accomplished that, they took no pains to instruct them, or to restrain them. They had renounced their superstitions, which had before somewhat restrained them. The Pharisees had given them no religion in its place to restrain them, and they were consequently left to the full indulgence of their vices. Your manner of conducting towards him does him no good, but makes him doubly worse than yourselves. This effect was doubtless produced by the Pharisees’ being more anxious for an external union to their party of a person from among the heathen, than for his real benefit. His former heathen notions were not corrected; he imbibed new errors; and a most corrupt example was set him by his teachers. No wonder he became doubly worse than they.

Our Saviour said the scribes and Pharisees compassed sea and land, that is, would take any pains, to make one a proselyte; then they made him twofold more the child of hell than before; corrupting him with their false doctrine, and setting him examples of an ill life (living just like the “world”) . Their business was not to turn men from sin unto God, but merely to convert them to an opinion, if they had once got them into their church, so as they could make their markets of them; never regarding their souls more, nor to press upon them the reformation of their lives, that they might be saved.

Does this not describe the majority of churches in America today????????????
I pray dear Lord, that we wake up and see just what the devil is doing.

[StraightUp]

Deep Woods, take a deep breath.

Regarding the disagreement with OSAS, here's my take:

If salvation is by grace, meaning we didn't earn it. How can we be good enough to keep it?

If I could never merit salvation, how is a christian going to perform well enough to keep it?

So, it is ALL by grace. It is obtained and kept/secure by His grace. I'm saved and I STAY saved by His grace (assuming the genuiness of my heart at the moment of salvation)

[Ordek Avci]

Again, Deep Woods, I agree with 99% of what you say. The only problem is, 99% of what you say is in no way contrary to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. I agree that anyone who lives a sinful, worldly lifestyle will not see the kingdom. Those people are not Christians, whether they want to call themselves Christian or not. We're in total agreement there.

Now "if God spared not the angels that sinned".....The OSAS people must think that they are better than the angels.....????????????
If we sin and do not sincerely repent of and forsake our sins, we will be cast down to hell just like the angels that sinned.

Again, I agree that we must repent and forsake our sins to be saved. But where does the Bible ever talk about any angels repenting? Or, beyond that, even having the opportunity to repent? Do I think I am better than an angel? If by "better" you mean that God has given his son to die in my place so that through faith I might live, then yes, I am better. Nowhere does scripture speak of angels repenting or even having the opportunity to repent. In fact, 1 Peter 1:12 says that the Gospel is something into which the angels "long to look," showing that they are not part of the plan of redemption, merely onlookers. Jesus did not die for angels, he died for men and women.

I don't think either of the two examples you gave, neither Lot's wife nor the fallen angels, has anything to do with this topic, unless you can provide some sort of interpretation of the events that I'm missing.

It may be helpful, to stay on topic better, if you could respond to my last responses. Thanks.

[Deep Woods]

Deep Woods, take a deep breath.

Regarding the disagreement with OSAS, here's my take:

If salvation is by grace, meaning we didn't earn it. How can we be good enough to keep it?

If I could never merit salvation, how is a christian going to perform well enough to keep it?

So, it is ALL by grace. It is obtained and kept/secure by His grace. I'm saved and I STAY saved by His grace (assuming the genuiness of my heart at the moment of salvation)

1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

And not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness. Not making your freedom a mere pretext under which to practise all kinds of evil. The word rendered maliciousness kakia--means more than our word maliciousness does; for it denotes evil of any kind, or all kinds. The word maliciousness refers rather to enmity of heart ill-will, an intention to injure. The apostle has reference to an abuse of freedom, which has often occurred. The pretence of those who have acted in this manner has been, that the freedom of the gospel implied deliverance from all kinds of restraint; that they were under no yoke, and bound by no laws; that, being the children of God, they had a right to all kinds of enjoyment and indulgence; that even the moral law ceased to bind them, and that they had a right to make the most of liberty in all respects. Hence they have given themselves up to all sorts of sensual indulgence, claiming exemption from the restraints of morality as well as of civil law, and sinking into the deepest abyss of vice. More than a few have done this who have professed to be Christians; and, occasionally, a fanatical sect now appears who make the freedom which they say Christianity confers a pretext for indulgence in the most base and degrading vices. The apostles saw this tendency in human nature, and in nothing are they more careful than to guard against this abuse.

But as the servants of God. Not free from all restraint; not at liberty to indulge in all things, but bound to serve God in the faithful obedience of his laws. Thus bound to obey and serve him, they could not be at liberty to indulge in those things which would be in violation of his laws, and which would dishonour him.

People think just because they at one time in their life were “sincere” that they will go to Heaven. DECISIONISM ! A lie from the devil!

Can a person step in front of a 40 ton log truck and be struck by that truck and not be drastically changed? Then how can a person claim to be saved and to have a relationship with God and not be changed…..GOD IS bigger than a log truck, He is bigger than all things, yet people can profess to have had an experience with God at one time in their life but there has been no reformation..then, nor since.. in their life….they still hang around with the same friends, go to the same places, do the same things, have fellowship with and act the same way as their unsaved, worldly friends.
If you profess to be saved and your life is not and has not been drastically changed, then you did not get anything..…no matter what your profess.

2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, bore our sins on the cross at Calvary and by His stripes we are healed and when we are too lazy, disobedient, rebellious, covetous, self-centered, self-willed and undisciplined to live a separated, consecrated, holy life for Him, We are no better than a thief!!!!!!!!!

People live just like their worldly neighbor, their worldly friends, doing the things of the world, going to the worldly events and such just like their worldly friends but yet they are “Christians”….huh???

Christian means Christ like…Do you think Christ did this? NO!!!!!!!!!!

People think just because they asked Jesus into their heart that all they have to do is sit back and wait for their ride to Heaven…like God owes them something…yeah right! No where in scripture did anyone preach this message. The message of the Bible is “Repent and believe!”, turn from your sin, come out from among them and be ye separate, touch no unclean thing.

Repentance has been defined as follows: “The true sorrow for sin, with dedicated effort to forsake it”; “godly sorrow for sin”; “the conviction of guilt produced by the Holy Spirit’s application of the Divine law to the heart”; “being sorry enough to quit” (a little boys definition).


GOD’s Word says in 1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.


Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

1. Holy fear is an excellent guard upon every holy thing, and against every thing that is unholy. It is wisdom to depart from evil, from the evil of sin, and thereby from all other evil; and therefore it is wisdom to fear, that is, to be jealous over ourselves with a godly jealousy, to keep up a dread of God's wrath, to be afraid of coming near the borders of sin or dallying with the beginnings of it. A wise man, for fear of harm, keeps out of harm's way, and starts back in a fright when he finds himself entering into temptation.

2. Presumption is folly. He who, when he is warned of his danger, rages and is confident, furiously pushes on, cannot bear to be checked, bids defiance to the wrath and curse of God, and, fearless of danger, persists in his rebellion, makes bold with the occasions of sin, and plays upon the precipice, he is a fool, for he acts against his reason and his interest, and his ruin will quickly be the proof of his folly. – Matthew Henry’s Commentary

A wise man fears God and hates sin; and thus he avoids the occasion and appearance of evil, and is thankful for cautions and directions. But the foolish are self-confident, and regardless of the consequences; they are vehement in their course, and enraged at those who would give them warning or advice. Thus they rush forward to the brink of the precipice, and at length fall headlong into destruction. – Thomas Scott”s Commentary


— A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil (Proverbs22:3). In Proverbs 3:7 we had, “Fear the Lord, and depart from evil;” but here the idea is different. A wise man fears the evil that lurks in everything, and examines and ponders actions by the standard of religion, and is thus saved from many evils which arise from hastiness and inadvertence.
The fool rageth, and is confident (Proverbs 21:24; 28:26). The fool easily falls into a rage, and has no control over himself, and is confident in his own wisdom, in contrast to the wise man, who has trust in God, and is calm and thoughtful (Isaiah 30:15). Revised Version, “beareth himself insolently, and is confident;” but, as Nowack remarks, the word (mithabber), where it occurs elsewhere, means, “to be excited,” “to be in a passion” (comp.
Proverbs 21:24; 26:17; Psalm 78:21, 59, 62), and this usual signification gives a good meaning here. Vulgate, transilit, “he overleaps” all laws and restrictions. The LXX., by transposition of the letters, reads mithareh, and translates mi gnutai,” The fool trusting to himself mixes himself up with sinners.” – The Pulpit Commentary

1Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (KJV)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived, evil companionships corrupt good habits. (MKJV)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits." (NKJV)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not deceive yourselves: "Evil companionships corrupt good morals." (Weymouth’s New Testament)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not deceive yourselves: Evil companions ruin good morals. (Montgomery’s New Testament)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." (Revised Standard Version)

1Corinthians 15:33 Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals." (World English Bible)

1Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals. (American Standard Version)

1Corinthians 15:33 Do not be tricked by false words: evil company does damage to good behaviour. (Bible in Basic English)

1Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (Darby’s Translation)

[StraightUp]

Thanks for all the qoutes from Scripture. You might add 2 Corinthians 5.17 in there too.

However, your Gospel is a Gospel of works. I agree that if a man says he loves God and doesn't keep His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. I also know in my heart and from Scripture I am secure in Christ. I don't have to live in fear like you. I don't hold God, He holds me and therein is my security.

[Ordek Avci]

Again, Deep Woods, I agree 100% with what you have to say. And everybody I know that believes in perseverance of the saints does as well. If a person is truly a Christian, their life will show it. If anything, honestly, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints reinforces that idea more strongly than you do, since it teaches that not only should a Christian walk in obedience, but that God himself will make sure that the Christian continues walking in obedience.

However, I wonder if you could respond to my previous posts regarding Lot's wife and the angels? Also, can you find clear, straight-forward texts that show how one who has genuine faith can thereafter lose that genuine faith, therefore passing from life to death?

[BigOrange]

However, your Gospel is a Gospel of works.

Is not faith a work?

John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Deep Woods]

Also, can you find clear, straight-forward texts that show how one who has genuine faith can thereafter lose that genuine faith, therefore passing from life to death?

Have you ever read about Judas Iscariot. His awful end is a solemn warning against avarice, hypocrisy, and all unfaithfulness.

Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

God created the earth, people of the earth…..but because of sin and falling away from Him, He destroyed the people in the flood.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. unbelief. {unbelief: or, disobedience}

Let us labour therefore. Let us earnestly strive. Since there is a rest whose attainment is worth all our efforts; since so many have failed of reaching it by their disobedience; and since there is so much danger that we may fail of it also, let us give all diligence that we may enter into it. Heaven is never obtained but by diligence, and no one enters there who does not earnestly desire it, and who does not make a sincere effort to reach it.

Lest any man fall Lest he fall off from the grace of God, from the Gospel and its blessings, and perish everlastingly.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Was it not with them that had sinned? That had sinned in various ways --by rebellion, murmuring, in belief. As God was angry with them for their sins, we have the same reason to apprehend that he will be angry with us if we sin; and we should, therefore, be on our guard against that disobedience which would lead us to depart from him.
These sinners, by their unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, rebellion against his officers and ordinances, and their other lusts, so imbittered his Spirit, that he by various judgments destroyed them, and turned them into the grave and hell together.
Observe here, The party grieved, God; the parties grieving, the people of Israel: The time of both, forty years; the occasion of this grief, sin in general, unbelief, hardness of heart, and final apostasy; the punishment of their sin, their carcases fell in the wilderness.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Here is shown the horrible punishment of those who were saved by the Lord and then have abused the grace of God to follow their own lusts.
He afterwards destroyed-The far greater part of that very people whom he had once saved. Let no one therefore presume upon past mercies, as if he was now out of danger.
Having saved the people out of Egypt, the people were destroyed for their sins in the wilderness.
Outward privileges, profession, and their conversion, could not secure those from the vengeance of God, who turned aside in unbelief, rebellion and disobedience. The destruction of the disobedient Israelites in the wilderness, shows that none ought to presume on their privileges. They had miracles as their daily bread; yet even they perished in disobedience and sin. A great number of the angels were not pleased with the stations God allotted to them; pride was the main and direct cause or occasion of their fall. The fallen angels are kept to the judgment of the great day; and shall fallen men escape it? Surely not. Consider this in due time. The destruction of Sodom is a loud warning to all, to take heed of, and flee from fleshly lusts that war against the soul.


Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality}

which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation – this clearly shows they were in a state of grace and the angels were even in heaven with God --- i.e. “their first estate”.
Even the angels, originally created holy, endued with noble powers, and exalted to great eminence in heaven itself, when, dissatisfied with their first estate, they ambitiously and rebelliously left the station assigned them by the Creator, have been cast down from their holy habitation, and were reserved as in chains of everlasting darkness, wickedness, misery, and despair, until the judgment of the great day, when their condemnation will be as distinguished as the rank was from which they fell.

God's judgments inflicted on some, are, and ought to be, warnings unto all. That God's ancient judgments were ordained to be our warnings and examples; his holiness is the same as ever, his justice the same, his hatred of sin the same, and his power to revenge it the same as ever; his judgments now may be more spiritual, but they are not less terrible. Learn, That disobedience, rebellion, sin in general will as certainly bring destruction upon Christians now, as it did upon the Israelites of old. Did God destroy them that did not believed his power then? no less will he destroy them that do not believe his power now.

Speaking of those in the wilderness, the chosen people of God……
1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[/b]Now all these things happened to them for ensamples[/b]; all these dispensations of Divine providence in the revelations of Divine wrath against several sorts of sinners, happened to the Jews, who were God's first and ancient people, and enjoyed those great privileges which were before mentioned, not only as just punishments upon them for their sins, but as examples or types, to let the succeeding world know what they should find God towards such kind of sinners.

And they are written for our admonition; and God in his wise providence hath ordered the record of them in holy writ, that others who should live afterward might read, and hear, and fear, and take warning, and beware of such wicked actions, as pulled down such vengeance upon a people, than which none can plead a nearer relation to God, or the receiving of greater favours and privileges from him.

And you can claim eternal security,…….humans today are no better than those of Israel, or the fallen angels. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think God’s Word speaks for itself.

[Deep Woods]

Thanks for all the qoutes from Scripture. You might add 2 Corinthians 5.17 in there too.

However, your Gospel is a Gospel of works. I agree that if a man says he loves God and doesn't keep His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. I also know in my heart and from Scripture I am secure in Christ. I don't have to live in fear like you. I don't hold God, He holds me and therein is my security.

Psalms 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

With fear, i.e. with reverence, and an awful sense of his great and glorious majesty, as very careful and diligent to please him, and afraid to offend him.

Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. There are two kinds of serving and rejoicing in God. First, a serving in security, and a rejoicing in the Lord without fear; these are peculiar to hypocrites, who are secure, who please themselves, and who appear to themselves to be not unuseful servants, and to have great merit on their side, concerning whom it is said in Psalms 10:5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them., "Thy judgments are far above out of his sight;" and also afterwards in Psalms 36:1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Proverbs 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth always: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief.

Proverbs 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Be careful, very careful.

[bohuntr76]

Westminiser Confession of Faith (Perserverance of the Saints)

They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (chap. 17, sec. 1). This definition does not deny the possibility of miserable failings in one's Christian experience, because the Confession also said, Nevertheless [believers] may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein; whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit: come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (sec. 3).

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35-37: And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Romans 5:9: Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 8:1: [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

Can't get much clearer than that!

Gonna have to go with StraightUp on this one, salvation by grace, we didn't earn it, so how can we be good enough to keep it.