Predestination

[Ordek Avci]

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This verse is very clear that believing in Jesus is the only way to gain eternal life. It's also very clear that whoever believes in him will gain this eternal life. Literally, the phrase "whoever believes", pas ho pisteuon (my Greek transliteration), says all the believing ones. Therefore, yes, whoever believes, every single person that believes in Jesus without exception has eternal life. Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, disagrees with that. Jean Calvin and Jacob Arminius both taught this. This is the heart of the Gospel. This is the common ground that we all stand on. It neither proves nor disproves either view.

[Deep Woods]

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Greek for works is ergon, from a primary ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

[skywalker]

Dead on Orvi

[Caller1]

Parable of the Wedding Banquet. All are invited.

[Ordek Avci]

Parable of the Wedding Banquet. All are invited.

Yes, all are invited. Again, both Calvinists and Arminians believe that and live that out. I have never met a Calvinist who said, "Don't share with that guy, he's obviously not one of the elect!" In the same way, I've never heard an Arminian who said, "Don't share with that guy, he's obviously not going to exercise his free will and choose God." No, but both groups share the Gospel with everyone, all the time. Again, that is common ground that we all stand on.

And actually, the parable is explained by Jesus himself in verse 14 (of Matthew 22), "For many are called but few are chosen." If the parable provides any evidence for either side, it seems to be reinforcing the idea of election, or God's choosing of us, more than anything. (The word translated as "chosen" can also be translated as "elect.") But, the real thrust of the parable is that Jesus is telling the Pharisees (as he had been doing since mid-chapter 21) that since they did not accept him and did not produce the fruits of righteousness, that the kingdom is being offered to the tax collectors and prostitutes. In a broader sense, the parable also seems to be reinforcing the idea that Israel had failed in its mission to spread the glory of God over the dry lands as the waters cover the seas, had killed the prophets God sent to them to bring them to repentance, had largely rejected Jesus already, and would soon crucify him, explaining why God had changed from a geo-political people to a trans-ethnic/trans-political boundary church approach to building his kingdom. Meaning, he was "giving up" on Israel and now working through the church instead from here on out.

[hencutter]

Ordek,man, I knew from some of your previous posts that you would have some well thought out scripture to back you up ! Once again, I appreciate the fact that there are some good discussions on this forum among Christians that are usually " discussed", rather than "argued".
Predestination is something that I do believe is taught in the Bible,but I also feel that it is one of those things that our human fleshly minds cannot fathom. We are explicitlty told in "The Great Commision" to "go into all the world and preach this Gospel." But in my opinion, the all knowing Living God knows who will spend eternity with him and who will not.Yet that shouldn't keep us from spreading His Gospel.
The main issue that I have with Calvinism ( and my ancestors were Hugeonots- french Calvinist) is the point that some ( not saying you,or the original poster of this thread) who strongly promote it-do indeed have the attitude of " I AM the elect, to heck with everyone else!" and then second ,what I consider dangerous doctrine of Once saved,always saved. While I realize that you stated that you believe that it is not a license for immorality-it is often taught that way, I have heard it myself for years. There are too many people who deligently serve the Lord, then fall away. My own experience with this is that - just as the prodigal son's father ran to him, our God will "run" to us when when our hearts return towards Him.However, I should we Not turn our hearts back to Him and die, then we will be worse off than if we had never come to know Him in the first place.

[Ordek Avci]

The main issue that I have with Calvinism ( and my ancestors were Hugeonots- french Calvinist) is the point that some ( not saying you,or the original poster of this thread) who strongly promote it-do indeed have the attitude of " I AM the elect, to heck with everyone else!"

You'll get no argument from me on that one. The intellectual elitism and the straight up, pure pride it brings out in a lot of people is what turns more people off from Calvinism than anything. And, sadly, Calvinists have gotten the reputation for not being as missions-minded as other brothers. That's sad to me because it is partially true, and it's also sad because practically all of the great missionaries of the past were Calvinists. I think you can see a resurgence in this area with the influence John Piper has had through his teachings and writings.

then second ,what I consider dangerous doctrine of Once saved,always saved. While I realize that you stated that you believe that it is not a license for immorality-it is often taught that way, I have heard it myself for years.

That's the same thing Paul was faced with during his ministry. Romans 6 starts with Paul addressing people who have used the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in exactly the same way you have seen it used. That is very unfortunate, since it's medicating the minds and souls of many lost people, numbing them to their own lostness. The teaching, which I do believe is clearly taught in scripture, is meant to encourage believers that if they are striving for holiness, walking in obedience, and depending wholly on the Lord for everything, that God himself is working with them, holding them up, and will accomplish his purposes and promises. It is not meant to give assurance to someone who prayed a prayer one time or got baptized at revival years ago, yet has failed to surrender his life to the lordship of Christ.

In the end, I can't discredit something that is taught in scripture based on people wrongly misapplying it. And I think when you see the massive amount of scripture that does teach it (what I gave was just a quick synopsis), you have to seriously take it into consideration. And when you have understood what God is trying to tell you in these verses, I think you will fall on your face, repenting of your sins, and thanking him for his great mercies.

[Deep Woods]

The problem today is that the so called preachers and leaders are more concerned with numbers...not souls but bodies......and people are added to the "worldly church" but not to the LORD.

Micah 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

The priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: these men should impartially declare the law of God to all, tell them what was clean or unclean, what was prohibited, what permitted, what commanded; what was safe to them, being pleasing to God, and what dangerous to them, being offensive to their God: BUT these for hire direct the people how to please themselves, and though they break the law, they teach not to be guilty; to extort, yet not be guilty of usury;, etc.....
Yet will they lean upon the Lord They will prescribe fasts and public thanksgivings, large meetings, all the while not one sin is repented of or forsaken, and not one public grievance is redressed.
Wow...how true is this of most preachers, evangelist today? People better wake up and read the Bible and stop listening to the false prophets.



Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Jeremiah 6:11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
Jeremiah 6:12 And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 6:13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jeremiah 6:14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

[skywalker]

That pride and arrogance is not just in the Calvinistic side, it is alive and well in the Armenian camp as well. I have friends who are both, however, I know many Armenians who will have nothing to do with those who believe the Calvinistic views and vice versa. I was asked point blank by a friend of mine to choose sides, (which I refuse to do) and told him I am of Christs' camp and beliefs. That didn't set too well with either side..............

[hencutter]

Actually, Ordek, it was kind of the other way around. After being submerged in O.S.A.S. doctrine for years (the denomination that I was a member of, many ministers,including theologions with PHD's etc), I fell on my face when I realized that I had been taught a lie (and believed it!) since I was very young.

[Deltamud77]

I will speak a little to the Great Commission and how it relates to Calvinism. I suppose I have been a "Calvinist" for roughly 12 years. It took a lot of research on my part to make the turn, but when I made the turn, it was as clear as day. Here is the deal with being a witness...God is in the ends and the means. God knows who will choose him, but that does not mean that he is not in the process of them coming to know him too. Therefore, missions are necessary. It actually helps with missions because you are wholey reliant on God to use you in your mission work, be it witnessing to a friend or to someone in Africa.

One of the great men I have ever met is Bo Bowen. Many of you older gentlemen will recognize that name as being that of an Ole Miss football star back in the Archie days. He was Archie's backfield mate at runningback. Bo is Presbyterian. Bo spends about 6-8 months per year in the Ukraine. This is not an exaggeration to say that Bo plays a part in the conversion of literally thousands of individuals every year in that country. I am talking multiple thousands of professions of faith (obviously some of these probably aren't true professions but undoubtedly many are).

The Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) is responsible for thousands of missionaries all over the world and spends millions of dollars on missions every year. They sponsor RUF (Reformed University Fellowship) which is on dozens and dozens of college campuses with the main goal being missions.


The point of all of this is that you should not believe all that you here about lack of missions by Presbyterians. I have never met a Presbyterian that did not believe in missions. This is a lie told by people who presuppose something they hav no knowledge of in my opinion.

[Ordek Avci]

Actually, Ordek, it was kind of the other way around. After being submerged in O.S.A.S. doctrine for years (the denomination that I was a member of, many ministers,including theologions with PHD's etc), I fell on my face when I realized that I had been taught a lie (and believed it!) since I was very young.

Again, I totally understand that it has been abused and taught incorrectly. However, I think you have some very serious and straight-forward texts to deal with if you deny that it's actually taught. And on the other hand, I think you're hard pressed to find straight-forward texts that teach otherwise.

The Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) is responsible for thousands of missionaries all over the world and spends millions of dollars on missions every year. They sponsor RUF (Reformed University Fellowship) which is on dozens and dozens of college campuses with the main goal being missions.


The point of all of this is that you should not believe all that you here about lack of missions by Presbyterians. I have never met a Presbyterian that did not believe in missions. This is a lie told by people who presuppose something they hav no knowledge of in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong man, I love the PCA. I'm thankful that the PCA is standing strong on the sovereignty of God, holding fast to his Word, and not giving in to the social pressures that our PCUSA brothers have caved to. And I am enormously in debt to the PCA, as the man who discipled me for years was from the PCA church and is now a pastor of a PCA church. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many presbyterian missionaries these days. Mission to the World, the PCA missions sending agency, only supports 610 long term missionaries. And, please, don't think I'm just pointing fingers. Last night I was visiting with a couple who is training to be a Southern Baptist pastor (the husband, obviously) and I encouraging them to consider missions as well. The SBC claims to be the largest denomination in the world, ever, and they are cutting their missionary numbers by almost a thousand due to budget short falls. I understand that financially times are tough, but for a denomination as large as the SBC, 5,000 missionaries just doesn't sound like enough to me.

And by the way, did we ever even discuss predestination?

[Deep Woods]

Actually, Ordek, it was kind of the other way around. After being submerged in O.S.A.S. doctrine for years (the denomination that I was a member of, many ministers,including theologions with PHD's etc), I fell on my face when I realized that I had been taught a lie (and believed it!) since I was very young.

Again, I totally understand that it has been abused and taught incorrectly. However, I think you have some very serious and straight-forward texts to deal with if you deny that it's actually taught. And on the other hand, I think you're hard pressed to find straight-forward texts that teach otherwise.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Those that slink away from Christ and his cause, for fear of persecution or secular loss, God must despise; in them he cannot delight; and his Spirit, grieved with their conduct, must desert their hearts, and lead them to darkness and hardness.
If any man draw back, i. e., goes back again into the sinful state.

Alot of "professing" Christians have never turned from their sin, have not separated themselves from the things of the world, have not forsaken worldly friends, lifestyles, actions, etc. God's Word says Deuteronomy 23:14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.
Isaiah 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Zechariah 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.



Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly <rasha`> shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners <chatta'> in the congregation <`edah> of the righteous.

Hebrew for ungodly rasha`, raw-shaw' ; morally wrong; concretely, an (actively) bad person:--+ condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong.

Hebrew for sinners chatta', khat-taw' ; a criminal, or one accounted guilty:--offender, sinful, sinner.

Hebrew for congregation `edah, ay-daw' ; a stated assemblage (specifically, a concourse, or generally, a family or crowd):--assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm.

2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

How strange is it that men should be unwilling to give up their worldly interests to secure their everlasting salvation! When God, say they, shut the gate of paradise against Adam, He opened to him the gate of repentance. The way to the kingdom of God is made sufficiently manifest-the completest assistance is promised in the way, and the greatest encouragement to persevere to the end is held out in the everlasting Gospel. But men are so wedded to their own passions, and so determined to follow the imaginations of their own hearts, that still it may be said: There are few who find the way to heaven; fewer yet who abide any time in it; fewer still who walk in it; and fewest of all who persevere unto the end. Nothing renders this way either narrow or difficult to any person, but sin. Let all the world leave their sins, and all the world may walk abreast in this good way. Adam Clarke's Commentary

Perhaps few absolutely, certainly few comparatively take the right road. If we would be saved we must swim against the stream, we must bear the cross and deny ourselves: this is not the popular course and never will be, but gracious souls choose it. Charles H. Spurgeon


Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Ye shall know them by their fruits, -- by their general conduct, conversation, etc. If their general life does not agree with their profession, they are false.
Ye shall know them; you may know them; you will be able to distinguish them.

Fruits; actions, conduct. Their hearts not being right, their lives will not be habitually right, their moral conduct.


1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[JoHo]

I think predestination means God has chosen who gets to Heaven. I definitely don't believe that!!! Look at John 3:16-"whosoever." Also, why would we have the Great Commission to go and tell and make disciples? If He chose His people, then why would He command us to share. Yes, He knows who is going to accept, because He is God and He knows everything. I also, believe once saved always saved. But we can fall out of His will. Its us that moves away from God, not the other way around. Plus, there is no earning your way to Heaven. Salvation comes only by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior!

[Ordek Avci]

Alright, rapid fire questions...

Look at John 3:16-"whosoever."

Again, "whosoever" does not prove anything. Whether you're Calvinist or Arminian, if you believe the Bible, then you believe that you must believe in Jesus to be saved. Whosoever does so, is saved. Calvinists believe that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. Arminians believe that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. What difference do you see this verse making?

Also, why would we have the Great Commission to go and tell and make disciples? If He chose His people, then why would He command us to share.

If God promised Noah that he would save him and his family, should he have built the ark? If God promised Abraham that he would make him into a great nation, should Abraham continue to have sex with Sarah? If God promised Israel the land of Canaan, should Israel have continued battling the people there? I think you see the pattern here.

Yes, He knows who is going to accept, because He is God and He knows everything.

Does God know everything before it happens? If God knows something, then can it happen any other way? If God knows something before it happens, and it can't be any other way once he knows it, then wouldn't it be safe to say that things are predetermined?

But we can fall out of His will.

How do you define will? What do you have to do in order to get outside of what God's "will" is?

And Deep Woods, are you arguing with me or against me? Because honestly, nothing in that last post goes against either predestination or the perseverance of the saints, though I'm not exactly sure how you see it pertaining to this discussion.